Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: If they're just there to collect a paycheck, they're in the wrong place because there's a whole bunch of places they can go to get a paycheck. And we spend so much time in our lives in the workplace. If somebody's not passionate and happy about what they're doing, if they don't get something else out of it other than a paycheck, if they're not getting a thrill out of helping the clients and helping the firm they're with grow, then they're in the wrong place.
[00:00:39] Speaker B: Most firms survive. The best ones scale.
Welcome to the Managing Partners Podcast, where law firm leaders learn to think bigger. I'm Kevin. Daisy. Let's jump in. Hey there, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Managing Partners Podcast. As always, I want to thank you for tuning into this show, listening to my guests. I love giving guests a platform to talk about themselves and to help teach you how they've been successful. And I get to learn alongside of you. So just a great honor to be here doing this show, and I'm excited. I got Barry Siegel on the show today. Met him through a colleague and a friend, Armando Leduc. Me and Barry actually passed each other somewhere at Eight Figure Firm Chicago conference last last year. And he's just got a great firm, been in business for a very long time, runs on systems and processes, all the great things.
And so we're going to learn a little bit from Barry's day and find out what makes him different and learn more about his firm and how it can help you guys today. Listening. So, Barry, welcome to the show.
[00:01:45] Speaker A: Thank you, Kevin. It's great to be here.
[00:01:47] Speaker B: Excellent. So, Barry, you're down in Florida serving clients across the state, specializing in estate planning out of law. But without taking your thunder, I will kind of let you introduce yourself and. And tell us a little bit more about your firm, what you specialize in, and then we'll kind of get into some business side of things.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: Absolutely. All right. Well, again, thank you for having me. My name is Barry Siegel.
I'm the president of the Siegel Law Group.
Our offices are in Boca Raton, Florida, and also in Naples, Florida, on the west coast of Florida. And we do our practices statewide. And our areas of practice are estate planning, elder law, which is the Medicaid eligibility planning, and also probate and trust administration.
That's all we do. We don't do the litigation. We don't do guardianships. We don't do any other area of law. We just stick with what we do. And I think that's one of the key things that I believe in is staying in your lane and doing what you do best and not trying to take every case unless it's something you really know what you're doing. I think that's important.
[00:02:53] Speaker B: No, I 100% agree with that. And some of the most successful owners of any kind of business that I know have done just that and just become experts in, in what they do and you get more referrals, you get, you know, more of the kind of business you want. I think most people, some people are scared of. Of niching like that because they think they're going to lose opportunity when in time it just builds and becomes stronger. So, yeah, kudos on that for sure. Been in business, but over 24 years, you have around 30 on your teams. Just, you know, great success, longevity. What, you know, what are some of the things. I know you're on us, but what are some of the major kind of aha moments maybe that, you know, you've had along your business career that you feel have, like, just contributed towards that success, like focusing. That's one of them for sure.
[00:03:45] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I've always believed in coaching and, you know, working with consultants because as attorneys, one of the things we all know is, you know, unless somebody can tell me otherwise, they don't really teach you about the business of having a law firm in law school. So for any of us who decide at some point, whether it's when you first get out of law school or a few years out that you want become an entrepreneur, hang your shingle and do it. It's not like you just do it and then all the business is going to come and you're all good. If that is happening, congratulations. But they don't really teach you these things. So I sought out to learn these things. And so one of the things I think the first key thing that I was told that really changed things for me was I had a consultant tell me, would you rather have a law practice or, or a law business?
And you know, that really resonated with me because once I got deeper into that and understood that I didn't have to be the one doing everything, and at that time it was, it was myself and one assistant and that was it. And at that point, that's when I started growing, I started hiring, I started taking on more expansive space and. And then from there we've just been growing for, you know, the last, I don't know, 10, 15 years.
[00:05:13] Speaker B: Yeah, that's excellent. Yeah. It becomes that, that point where you know, well, some make that, that transition and some remain a solo with an assistant. I know plenty of those folks, and I've had plenty of those folks that reach out to us to try to help them with marketing or something like that. But you can just tell they just haven't. They haven't grown, they haven't gotten in their comfort zone. They still in control. They still want to do all the legal work. And it's just.
[00:05:39] Speaker A: That's one of the hardest things, Kevin, is just, you know, giving up that control and not trying to do everything. Learning how to delegate different things and make. And learning how to delegate it to the right person in the firm so that you're not, you're not having an attorney do intake, for example, you know, you have the person that's trained and specialized doing that so that the attorney could either be seeing clients or managing the firm or managing the COO or the CEO.
[00:06:12] Speaker B: I think it's also, it's an ever changing thing. It's ongoing. You know, as I've been in business for 20 plus years, you'll find yourself doing something and eventually come to the realization, oh, that's something I should not be doing. But over time, you get into doing something else and then you're like, wait a minute, why am I doing that? And you just got to keep handing these things off because it's easy to get stuck back in and be doing stuff that you shouldn't be doing. I think that's kind of a challenge that we're going to constantly face as owners of companies.
[00:06:44] Speaker A: It's really a skill we need to develop. We've got to build that muscle to be able to really learn how to do that. And I can't say I've mastered it completely, but I'm working on. It's a work in progress.
[00:06:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I have a partner and a coach having someone else to, to kind of tell you sometimes, hey, why are you doing this? Like, you, it looks like you spent a lot of time doing this and you're like, oh, you know, I just, I just kind of wanted to do it, dug in and now, yeah, maybe I should hand that off to somebody. So, you know, as your business grows, needs grow, things change and roles have to be filled. And sometimes you have to step in and temporarily do it until you can then create that position to hand it off. So gliding. You know, it's always something that you have to deal with.
[00:07:38] Speaker A: Kevin, I think another important thing is when you go to, you know, when you join these groups and go to these Conferences to help you learn how to build and grow your law practice. And I know that there's a whole bunch of them out there. Some are very specific to areas of law, some are more general. But really, I think one of the key things is not just the content that you're getting from the expert on the stage, but the, the, the, the information that you're getting from the other attorneys who are attending during the breaks, during lunch, during dinner, all of those things where you're, you're getting to know other attorneys and you learn. So, oh, my God, that's a great idea. I've been struggling with that issue.
And, you know, and I think really one of the key things too is to be surrounding yourself with people who are successful, doing the things that you want to do, growing to the, to the level of firm you want to be. So that you're, you know, we had talked about this before about the, I think it was a Tony Robbins quote about if you want to get better at tennis, you want to play with the people who are better than you, not people that are not as good as you. So, and you really, I think part of that may be you become the average of the five people you spend the most time with as well. So you really just want to surround yourself with people who are positive, people who, you know, you're going to be able to help and they can help you as well. And, and yeah, so just, you know, put yourself in the room that is going to have the people in there that, that have the kind of business, law business that you aspire to be.
[00:09:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I absolutely love that. I think if you're going there just to get the content and then leave or don't show up and just get the downloaded version just to get the content. Every mastermind I've ever looked at or been part of, and I even have a mastermind of mine, the, the implementer or the, the person maybe that runs it or whatever is not the reason I would join that group. It's for the people that they've been able to build within that group and that becomes the value and why you stay in it. Not that they had a conference and had some good speakers at it.
That's, you know, I think that's a minimum requirement to have a good group just to have the content things. But the goal should be who's in the room, who are you connecting with. If, you know, you can be other attorneys that have an estate planning firm in other states and you can literally sit down and talk and say, hey, what are you doing here? We have this issue here. What have you done and have that discussion and help each other out. So I think that's a great tip and I think the most important thing when looking at a group is who else is in it and, and is it the right fit for you? You know, so. Great tip. And, and some of these groups, you know, some are aggressive and like, kind of, you know, and some are not, and some are more, you know, so what's your speed? What's your style? Are you trying to be like, you know, the next John Morgan or, you know, you just, you want to really grow a, you know, awesome practice at your own pace.
And so there's different groups out there that you can look at. So.
[00:10:38] Speaker A: Yeah, and it, it really all just depends on what the attorney slash owner wants. You know, at the end of the day, what is their goal? Is their goal just to be a solo? And, and you know, what, what is the revenue that they're looking to earn and, and the profit margin and all that? So, you know, somebody may be perfectly happy having a small practice and, and not working as hard, and then other people may want to grow it to, you know, over eight figures and, you know, and, and, and keep growing and become the next Morgan and Morgan and, and all the power to them as well.
[00:11:13] Speaker B: Yeah, it's, you know, Ben Glass is a good friend and not mentor, but mentor to many.
Not a mentor to me necessarily, but I listen to a lot of his content. But, you know, it's building the firm that you want and the life that you want with the firm. Right. So it's, it's whatever you desire, what's your values, what's your goals. And yeah, that's either the biggest. Most firms don't want to be the John Morgan. They don't want to be the biggest firm in the world. Also. I've seen some that start out really solo and, and they don't want to grow, but then they, they kind of, they like the business side of it and so they, they kind of naturally grow and then they start to like it, not because of the money necessarily, but because of just the, the journey that, that they're on.
And there's a compliment, compliments along the way. So.
[00:11:58] Speaker A: And it is a journey and it's not always going to be smooth sailing. The, the entire time when you get to different levels, there's going to be growing pains and, and you know, one of the things I've heard before too is, you know, the people who got you to where you Are as far as your team may not be the people that are going to take you to the next level.
So, you know, firms have all kinds of growing pains and you know, it's, it's kind of like if you look at the stock market, how it goes up and down and up and down. So it's not going to be a straight line up, but hopefully the trajectory is going to be up where you want it to be at the end of the year and the end of your career.
[00:12:35] Speaker B: Yeah, you just want to look over, you know, just like the stock market every two to four or five years. Is it, is it still trending up and things are going well, but yeah, it's going to be more jagged than you expect.
I think that's a hard pill to swallow too with. And I've gone through this. Is that just what you just said? The people that got you to where you are aren't going to get you to where you want to go. That's a tough one because you might have someone you really like or someone that was a great fit two years ago, three years ago, and come to the realization that they can't get us to where we want to go and they might not be able to stay at the firm or maybe they just have to be have someone over top them, which doesn't always work out great either.
[00:13:14] Speaker A: Or, or sometimes you just have to, you know, if they're still a good fit for the firm, if they're the right person but just not in the right seat, then you may want to shift them into the right seat or find the right seat for them. And if they're the wrong person, if they don't, if they don't mesh with your core values of your firm, then it's just not a fit. You want to, you know, hire and fire on, on court on your core values and you even want to find clients that are going to fit your core values as well.
[00:13:45] Speaker B: Yeah, super powerful. Yeah. If they're not a crosser fit, they shouldn't be there anyway and they shouldn't have even made it in the door. Now, you know, I know for us, we, we had a bunch of folks before we set our core values and really dialed everything in. And so that's a little tougher, I think, because then you got to kind of reassess and make some big changes. By far the best exercise you can do is to go through and set your values, make it clear, hire and fire by those, and it's gonna be a whole lot easier. And then, yeah, you Got a great person that's a great fit, and you can put them in a different seat and it doesn't disrupt things.
That's a great way to give them the opportunity.
And sometimes you ask your people, hey, is this what you want to be doing? And they might say, I'd rather do this over there one day. And you say, okay, well, well, how can we plan to maybe transition you to that? What does it require?
And give them an opportunity. I think it's good now.
[00:14:42] Speaker A: The person is going to need to want those responsibilities and that position. And if they're, if they're not into it, if they're, if they don't want that, then they're not going to be a good fit.
[00:14:51] Speaker B: Yeah. One of our core values is related to passion. So if they're not passionate about their job or their position, they're not a fit.
And if they're not passionate about, like, what we do in general as a company, they're. They're not a cultural fit.
You know, if they're just a person that's just always down or don't care about nothing and whatever, they're not going to get in the door anyway. But yeah, I think that's, that's a good tip right there is. If you want to transition to different seat, will they actually be passionate about that or is it just a band aid fix to try to keep them in the door?
[00:15:24] Speaker A: Right.
[00:15:28] Speaker B: So, Barry, you know, I know from my experience, you know, if someone's gonna move from one seat to another, there is a position available. I think that's important that, you know, you're not just creating positions. But if they're not passionate about that new role or that new position, you know, just forcing that is a bad thing for them and for you.
And sometimes it's okay to say, you know, let's try to find maybe a better place that you, you would be happier. And that's okay.
I think it's great to have those conversations versus just, hey, we gotta let you go. And. Or they, they leave unexpectedly.
[00:16:04] Speaker A: And on the other side of it, Kevin, too, I'd say that it's important to recognize those who are doing a great job and give them opportunities for growth in their career, opportunities for promotion. And that's something that we, we do within our firm. We're always looking for opportunities to, to promote people.
And interestingly enough, you had mentioned that one of the core values of your firm is passion, as it is one of ours as well.
So we really believe strongly in people having a passion for what they do, if they're just there to collect a paycheck, they're in the wrong place because there's a whole bunch of places they can go to get a paycheck. And we spend so much time in our lives in the workplace. If somebody's not passionate and happy about what they're doing, if they don't get something else out of it other than a paycheck, if they're not getting a thrill out of helping the clients and helping the. The firm they're with grow, then they're in the wrong place.
[00:17:04] Speaker B: 100% agree with that.
It's not fair to, to either party. Right. That they're doing something that they don't want to do.
Just get a paycheck. And, and here's the thing. We have a lot of other core values.
If the passion, if you have passion, the other things are easy, you know, because you're there doing a good job, because you like it and you're trying to help. And just all the other checkboxes are pretty easy to fill. So, yeah, all powerful stuff.
[00:17:32] Speaker A: Another important one of our core values we have four is teamwork. People who are going to be part of a team and understand they're part of a team and work with each other.
We find that to be an important quality as, as well as the other two, that we have integrity. Everything we have we do has to be with integrity, doing the right thing, doing what you would do if nobody else is watching, doing the right thing when nobody else is watching. And also compassion in, in our field of practice, we're dealing with families that are having issues. Perhaps mom or dad or grandma. Grandpa has to go to a nursing home and it's. Or someone just passed away. You know, we have to be real human beings. We have to have compassion for what they're going through and genuinely care. And if we don't, we're in the wrong business.
[00:18:20] Speaker B: Yeah, core values are just so important. We talk about them a lot on this show and just banging people over the head with it. That. How important it is. And something. I'll go back to something you said earlier too.
People want opportunity and they want to know that they have a career and that you're, you know, you're constantly working on looking at what other opportunities they are. Think about this. If you're a solo Barry with an assistant for 24 years, what is that? Assistance, opportunity and their career growth and trajectory? Nothing. Same position, same thing over and over. Maybe they got some pay raises just because of inflation, but you know, Are you really doing them a service by giving them a job that basically stays the same for 24 years? No.
[00:19:07] Speaker A: And in that situation, they have to be a jack of all trades. And if you're having any kind of growth, that person, you know, the, the, the, the workload on them is getting heavier and heavier and that's not fair to them either. You know, so, so we bring people in, you know, who have the expertise in, in the area, whether it's, you know, paralegals to handle different areas of our practice or intake departments and obviously attorneys so that we have the right people doing the right function within the firm.
[00:19:38] Speaker B: Yeah. I think, you know, when you're starting a new company, you know, you're going to have, you're, you know, have some generalists. We need, we need people to do a couple things and, but as you grow, the goal is, the goal is to get them into a specialty that they're the best at and they're the most passionate about.
But it's, you know, it's kind of all hands on deck in the beginning or maybe when you're starting like a new, a new venture or, you know, if you added a new practice area, you know, sometimes it's going to be all right. We're going to kind of do this how we can until we can get to a place where we can stabilize and, and have specialists.
I think that's important for folks to hear because if you're, you're trying to have all the right people at overnight, you know, it's usually going to be kind of hard to do that.
[00:20:20] Speaker A: So that's not going to happen. You're not going to get them all overnight.
[00:20:23] Speaker B: Yeah. So you're going to have to have that teamwork, the team players, the ones that, hey, I need you to help with a few things. You know, this won't be forever.
I think them having that, that trust and seeing your vision too is important that, hey, this isn't going to always be like this, but I need your help right now.
[00:20:40] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think one of the things too is you want to really find those A and B players. Of course, we all want the superstar in every position. You're not going to get that. You're not going to have an all star team at every position however you want them to be in the A and B levels. And, and one of the things that, that I've, I've also heard is you have to be lucky sometimes, Sometimes you just have to be lucky with, with a hire and sometimes you will get that Superstar.
But you know that there's, there's. If you think about all the people out there that are looking for these positions, they all can't be superstars.
So.
So you know, you gotta really get lucky and find that needle in the haystack.
[00:21:21] Speaker B: Yeah. 100. And I've said this time and time again, if you have a great culture, you have core values, you have vision, you. They see that there's a future for them and then they look around the room and go, wow, everyone here is just. Something's different about them. Right. It's easy finding people and a players compared to. We're just running fast, trying to make as much money as we can, you know, running gun situation kind of culture. And you're just hiring people to hire them.
You're. It's going to be a challenge to find people that want to work there.
[00:21:55] Speaker A: So one of the, one of the biggest thrills I get is when we get client feedback about some of our team members either in a meeting. I just had a meeting yesterday with a client who, who was praising our intake person. So I went and told her this morning about it. And then you know, we get, we get testimonials, video testimonials and Google reviews where they mention either particular attorneys or someone that they dealt with. And I just love that because you know, they get the recognition and that means that they're doing a good job and they're being friendly with our clients and making our clients feel like they're at home, like they're. They're with part of their family.
[00:22:35] Speaker B: Yeah. I love that so much when I, we use Slack and I'll get notifications for like a review or just good information, you know, good things that have happened with clients or good news I can share.
So I love that every day when I can get any of that information about a person or just us as the team and having that we, we kind of do it in our Slack so that everyone in the, the company can see it too. So a lot of peer press praise as well internally which you know we, we love to see. And that way you can also the system that we have if we have an employee that's not getting mentioned or doesn't mention anyone else and that that's a way to find potential problem as well. Yeah. That, that feedback is excellent. Good stuff. I love it.
And I tell people do this. I do marketing for law firms. Right. That all is your marketing. Everything you just, you're talking about today and why you've done well. Your people and people Say good things about them, how they interact with them, how they're compassionate. Your clients see that through and through and they go, wow, this something's great about this term. And they refer people and they mention it.
That is all your marketing, that's your brand.
And people just want to think marketing is Google Ads or just jumping on social media to try to get views.
But when it comes down to when they talk to your firm, that's the difference of whether or not they're going to sign up and become a client and refer you.
[00:24:01] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. I mean, of course when you get a referral, a direct referral from someone, generally that new client already trusts you because they trust the person who referred them over. But in the digital world, when somebody is looking you up on Google, you know, and they, you know, they see a bunch of names on there, you know, they don't know who, who to, to trust or who to go to. So a lot of that has to do with the reviews. And so, you know, people will read those and they should, you know, we look at reviews just to see what restaurant to go to or whatever and, and that would influence us. So something as important as who's going to be the law firm that's there for you and your family when it comes to your, your estate, your legacy, protecting yourselves, getting peace of mind, that's an important decision. So I would suggest that people do, you know, if, if you're not getting a direct referral to somebody, at least, you know, look at the Google reviews and make sure that they're good and, and, and that people were happy and pleased with, with the law firm.
[00:25:08] Speaker B: Yeah, 100%. I think it's not just that you have reviews, but you know, how they're written and they mention employees of the firm and you know, they kind of tell a story, you know, versus just Barry's great, you know, five star, you know, it's, people are looking for more than that these days, especially with hiring someone like yourself.
[00:25:27] Speaker A: Right. They want details of what the experience was like and, and to know that there, there, there is a process for the entire engagement that, and, and that this firm has been doing it for a long time and they take care of their clients and they're friendly to their clients and, and you know, that's, those are some of the things I'd be looking for.
You know, I assume that any attorney that has been practicing for a while in whatever area is competent. Hopefully those other things, those intangibles are super important because you know, sometimes we hear these Things we hear stories or jokes about lawyers and, and that, you know, that they get a bad rap. We're businesses and we want people to have a great experience so that they will come back to us, so that they'll refer their friends and family.
Generally, we just want to do the right thing for our clients so that really. So they'll have a better future. That's the goal of, I think, pretty much any lawyer for any area of practice, to help our clients have a better future.
[00:26:28] Speaker B: 100%. I know so many lawyers, and they're all just amazing people and majority. Right. I'm sure there's some just like everything. There's some out there that maybe are not. But I get to talk to many great attorneys across all practice areas that are just trying to do great work and help their clients. And I think the main point here, too is just being a good lawyer is one piece.
And I think all lawyers are trying to be a good lawyer. But to give your client a good experience means you have to do the other things, which means culture, values, intake, processes, or you can't get the good experience right. And most bar complaints, most bar complaints are communication, follow up.
[00:27:06] Speaker A: Communication, follow up. Those are. Those are the big ones.
[00:27:10] Speaker B: Yeah. It's not that Barry wasn't a good lawyer, you know, it was all the other stuff. So, yeah, get on board with all the other stuff and take care of your client so well. Barry, I appreciate you sharing so much today about your firm and some of the lessons, some of the things that we both agree on, for sure.
Yes. Congrats on the success and building your firm so far. And thanks for sharing with us today on some of the things that really have helped you in your journey.
[00:27:42] Speaker A: Kevin, first of all, thank you for inviting me to be on your podcast and I really enjoyed it and I look forward to talking to you again soon.
[00:27:52] Speaker B: Yes, sir. For sure.
Everyone, thank you again so much for tuning in. If you want to connect with Barry, you can go to check out his law firm. I'll let him. What's the web address for your law firm?
[00:28:04] Speaker A: Yeah, our web address is www.seagull law group.com and that's S I E G L, so Siegel law group.com.
[00:28:15] Speaker B: excellent. And if you want to connect with Barry directly by email or by LinkedIn, just let me know and I will make the connection.
And if you have an estate planning firm or just a law firm in Florida, maybe someone you'd like to, to meet or have referrals for, just reach out and I'll make sure that you all get connected and can have this conversation. So thanks so much again for tuning in. Barry, thank you so much. You stay hang on with me for just a moment, and we'll see you on the next episode. Everyone.
