[00:00:00] Speaker A: If you're not adapting to these stuff, you're just not going to make it.
[00:00:05] Speaker B: Hey there, everyone. What's up? Welcome to another episode of the Managing Partners Podcast. I'm Kevin Daisy, and I'm your host. Today. I have a really special guest that has a interesting background, and her and her husband had developed some pretty cool things that we're going to talk about today and how you can apply that into your business. So we'll be talking about a little bit of AI today, which is obviously a hot topic out there.
But first, I wanted to mention my partner with this podcast, anchoring Legal. Go check them out. So, Sarah, it's been so good to get to meet you and talk to you before this show, and I'm excited to have you on today. So welcome.
[00:00:47] Speaker A: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
[00:00:48] Speaker B: Yeah. So interesting background you have. So I want to first, you know, we'll be talking about AI and how you're leveraging and all the advantages of it, as well as something that you have developed with your husband that you're using in your firm. So we'll talk about all those things. But always like to start out with you telling us, you know, how you became an attorney and what your story is.
[00:01:13] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. So my name is Sarah Tahil Kavitin. I am a lawyer and practicing in Oregon and Washington. I do a lot of insurance defense litigation. I'm a partner at a firm called Chalkbo, our home.
So that firm started in approximately 2013. I joined in 2015 when it was five lawyers and mostly only in Oregon. And it's grown from five lawyers to, you know, mid 20 lawyers, where we are today dominating kind of Oregon and Washington and the insurance defense field, you know, slip and falls. I defend gig workers in the gig economy who get sued, that kind of thing. Mostly all personal injury. So I became a lawyer because, like a lot of people, my dad was a lawyer. And so I grew up in a small town where he was kind of a big fish in a small town. I got to see him in litigation. So I thought, hey, that looks fun. You know, I'm going to do that. I knew from fourth grade on that I was going to do it. I actually did a mock trial when I was in fourth grade and got a not guilty verdict for my friend AJ and so I was kind of hooked after that.
[00:02:18] Speaker B: Awesome.
[00:02:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, sorry. Sorry, Kevin. I also, like, as you mentioned, my husband has a company called Casemark, and I'm the chief legal officer of Casemark, which is kind of a fancy way of saying I Help consult to build products that US Attorneys want to use.
[00:02:37] Speaker B: Well, yeah, so I think, you know, that was the interesting thing with you is you're a private attorney. You work for the. For a firm that you've been at for quite a while, and your husband's the tech guy, obviously, and you developed with him kind of a product that is helping you within your firm and now taking it out to. To primetime to help other law law firms. So we'd love to just tell us more about that product and how people can find it, of course, and then we'll kind of get in some conversations around, you know, how you're using it and the advantages of. Of AI. Obviously, there's. There's so much talk out there about AI and how people should use it, shouldn't use it. You know, there's fear of it, I think, as well. So, yeah, tell us more about. About the. The product, and we'll kind of dive into maybe some of those other questions.
[00:03:29] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. So my husband is a serial tech entrepreneur. His name is Scott Kavitin, and he. AI came out, and he was just fascinated with it. You know, as often is the case with people that are entrepreneurs, they. Something comes out that's kind of in their wheelhouse that they absolutely love. And he said, what. How could I use the. What are the things that you do in your practice that would be really helpful to have, like, summaries or to look at documents? And I said, well, we do a deposition summary after every deposition to secure that information to provide to the client or the adjuster. So it'd be helpful if we could have AI do that, and then we could just add on the humanistic impact of the deposition as well. And then also med crons and case summaries and different reporting documents for, you know, what's been done, what needs to be done? Are there records that need to be done and having AI do that? And he said, hey, I. I think I can do that for you. And turns out he can. So he started with deposition summaries and kind of created those to be specific sort of to personal injury, but they're expanding to other areas of law. And then now he's launching med crons in beta testing as of December, which is really amazing. So, I mean, that takes so much time, so much labor to do. And, yeah, I mean, as you were saying, like, there's a lot of skeptics in AI. As soon as it came out, like, one of my law partners, I won't say who, but he said, oh, it's never going to be a thing. And then another one's, you know, saying, oh, it's going to take all of our jobs. And I think neither one of those things is true. But it's evolved tremendously in the last year and a half.
[00:05:16] Speaker B: Yeah, well, it's, you know, I have, you know, I've met a lot of lawyers that are embraced it and have used it, leveraged it, getting tons of efficiency from it, not replacing anybody, of course, but if you're not getting on the train, you're gonna miss it and you're just gonna help your clients. It's gonna help you streamline things, move things forward, get results faster.
It, it just makes sense. So you gotta embrace this stuff and figure out how you're gonna use it. If you're not learning how to use it at all in a few years, you're going to be just way, way, way behind. So it's definitely important to look at how to use it, you know.
[00:05:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree with you more, Kevin. And just the, a lot of the different state bars are putting out task force on how to deal with it. And of the 50 states, 40 of them have a rule that says you have to properly utilize technology. And utilizing technology isn't running from it, it's actually using it for the efficiency of your clients in order to provide the services. So it's, you're right. And it's not just, you know, the train has left the station. It's like a high speed moving train, so you have to get on now. And you know, I think attorneys have like a hard time conceptualizing what that's going to look like for them and how in their office it will look. So, you know, for example, if you just even use like Lexis or Westlaw, they've got really cool tools that say, you know, draft me a complaint on premise liability in Oregon. And I did that and it's amazing. Or draft me of argument as to why these documents are discoverable under these facts. And of course like anything, you have to check the citations. I mean, if you were practicing based on Google before and just copy and pasting, you probably weren't, you know, doing that great of a job anyways. But it's just a jumping off place to get to the answer so much faster. And so, I mean, that's just one I, you know, AI can check your grammar, AI can help for your billing software. There's AI companies that like casemark, that streamline your litigation process from beginning to end. I mean, there's so much out there to be utilized.
[00:07:34] Speaker B: Yeah. One of the things that we talked pre. Pre recording is that too with like turnover. So if you have an associate or an attorney leave, how AI can help fill the gap there and bridge the gap, I guess, where, where they left off, what they were doing, keep track of those, those things.
[00:07:51] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And one of the, you know, I know you have a lot of really amazing managing partners that come on the podcast and have talked about how, you know, know to prevent turnover, what you can do as a managing partner to do that. And I will say that in the last 10 years, turnover has been higher and people working tenure in companies just across the board in every single profession has gone down significantly. And of course that has to do with economic factors like the pandemic. It has to do with, you know, employee satisfaction and then also just the fluidity of the current market as to be able to get different jobs because it's booming. So although we, you know, as partners maybe take it personal, there's a lot that goes into it that isn't happening before. Before in the last 10 years is changing. So we also have to adapt to that and can't take it so personally. And one of the ways you can do that is by using AI. Like, I think we've all had the experience where an associate is halfway out the door. Maybe their files are not exactly what you would have hoped them to be. So you can, you know, run a case summary report that says, here are the depositions that we're taking. Here's what needs to be done. Here are the medical records that's provided. Here's what needs to continue to be requested. Here are the, the pleadings, the motions have been filed, what's in those documents. So you as a managing partner or a supervisor or even a supervising paralegal can pick up that file and figure out exactly where it left off. And that's kind of like for a caseload, I would also say is I would imagine that plaintiff's law firms have a really hard time keeping people in their firm developing demand letters and getting those demand letters out. And so you could have a bunch of clients that have come in that you've spent a long time trying to earn. And then if you don't have those demand letters getting out, you don't have that money flowing through the door. And a lot of those demand letters have to do with what are the medical records say, you know, what else needs to be obtained so you can send out more, you can bring in more income with Less people than before?
[00:10:06] Speaker B: No, 100%. I think back to what you're saying about, you know, losing people or whatever. I hate it every time. And it's, we've had some amazing people, you know, leave and it's going to happen and you know, just bet on it. Especially if you grow and scale, it's going to happen more often. So, you know, I hate it every time. It's been something I've had to deal with since I've started my business, but it's usually for the better and you know, it's. But it's just going to happen. So how are you going to prepare for that? How are you going to mitigate that and make it as smooth as possible?
And it sounds like AI can be a big help for that. So that's pretty cool. I never thought about that actually.
[00:10:46] Speaker A: Yeah. And as you know, Kevin, it's turnover can be one of the most expensive parts of running a firm. Getting people up to speed, having that lag time, not getting stuff out the door. So if you can cut that down, then you don't have that problem. It's, you know, one problem creates a solution.
So hopefully with that rapid turnover and the things that are happening just in our current economy, it will help a ton. Taking down on that lag time.
[00:11:14] Speaker B: Yeah. And you know, response time intake. You know, with us we do marketing. So you know, there's how you responding to leads, how fast you responding to a chat or a text or email or whatever, however they're coming through. And then what's the follow up like? You know, there's client experience, there's so many things out there, messaging, apps and AI and there's, there's all these little pieces out there that I think, you know, law firms can, can definitely take advantage of. It's in some cases not replace people. But you know, you need some things to be like, hey, it's a Saturday, we're not available. Like how are we taking care of a lead that comes through?
And it doesn't stop there. It's getting the demands letters out. So a lot more of that has to go into it. So while, you know, some law firms, like, hey, I'll spend more in marketing and advertising, that just creates more problems down the line. Like how are you handling efficiencies and your client experience and intake and follow up, there's so much more that stops after I give you a lead. Right. So I'm always trying to get my law firms that are clients like, you got to improve these things. Like there's bottlenecks, there's problems. We can't just market more and fix that, so.
[00:12:26] Speaker A: Absolutely. And I mean, if you think about it from a perspective too, like, once you land that client and you want to keep that client to get a referral, or you don't want, you want them to have confidence as you as an attorney go, you know, having all of that data to pop in a mediation statement where you're going to get a higher settlement because you've done the research, you've looked into these things, you've prepared your client on, you know what to expect based on the mediation statement, like, you're just going to get better results. And from a defense perspective, if you're not using these things, you're simply going to be falling behind.
[00:12:57] Speaker B: Sure. I mean, yeah, a lot of these plaintiff firms are, you know, on the cutting edge of stuff. And I see more of them at like, these conferences and more of them out trying to learn this stuff.
So, yeah, they're gonna have an advantage to some degree if you're not.
The defense firms aren't keeping up with it.
[00:13:16] Speaker A: So you bring up, like, such a good point too, because it is. The plaintiffs firm is going to start using it first, and then it's going to be inundating the adjusters, the defense side, and it's going to have to be adapted. And I think a lot of people from the defense perspective think, oh, my gosh, we're going to be losing all these man hours and these billables. But when you have a market that's super tight to hire people, you have what we call hours on the shelf. Right. Hours that could be billed that aren't being billed because you can't get to it. So the volume of cases is bound to go up, the amount of work is bound to go up, and you simply need to. To find a way to manage that work in an efficient way. And from the defense perspective, it's only a matter of time until the clients require certain vendors be used for AI or certain processes be in your office for the use of AI.
[00:14:10] Speaker B: Well, you made a good point. And I heard this maybe at a conference or that, but that, yeah, it says that you need to be leveraging technology.
So it's like you, you know, it's. You should be doing that as a firm. Like, you should be looking to improve the experience and efficiencies by leveraging technology. And I thought that was interesting versus, like, thinking the bar would stay away from that kind of stuff a little bit more. So I thought that was Very interesting that that's, that's what's been put out there. So. Yeah, so you need to be doing this to stay up to speed.
[00:14:44] Speaker A: The New York, what's it called, task force put out a paper on this and they said, here's what we recommend. And I think they said a refusal to use technology that makes legal work more accurate and efficient may be considered a refusal to provide competent legal services to clients. And the New York bar, and I think the California bar were some of the top two ones that were issued first. And so I would anticipate that the other, the others are soon to follow. I mean, I had an attorney tell my paralegal the other day that he doesn't accept service via email on thing, you know, like routine stuff. And my thought was process, like, well, give it a year, he'll be retired. Which is true. Because if you're not adapting to these stuff, you're just not going to make it.
[00:15:33] Speaker B: Yeah. Again, if you're about to retire, you're on your way out. Maybe, maybe you don't have to embrace all this stuff. I don't know. But, but are you leaving that firm behind? Do you have employees that are going to be taking it over?
If so, you're not doing them a very good service. So, you know, you need to start adapting for sure. So. But if it's just you and you're going to hang it up, maybe. But I don't think those people are listening to my podcast.
[00:16:01] Speaker A: No, definitely not. They're probably listen to the radio, which is fine. Still good. I love my, you know, some, some radio.
[00:16:09] Speaker B: But yeah, I agree my listeners are on a different level, so appreciate you too.
My listeners are like Sarah pretty much so.
[00:16:19] Speaker A: Entrepreneurs managing firms growing their businesses. Love that.
[00:16:28] Speaker B: Today's episode is brought to you by Answering Legal. Now I just switched my company Array Digital over to Answering Legal and it's made my life a whole lot easier. If I can't get to the phone, their 247 virtual receptionists take the call and take them through a full intake process so we never miss new business again.
Now Answering Legal has been at this for more than a decade and they specialize in answering phone calls for law firms like yours. They even have a brand new easy to use app and they integrate with all the top legal softwares and platforms.
So from our listeners today, we actually have a special deal of a 400 minute free trial offer of Answering Legal services that you can try out by going to answeringlegal.com for array. You can also call 6314-37-4803 and use special code Daisy. That's my last name. D A I S E Y.
So go check them out and let's get back to the show.
Yeah, I mean, so when it comes to all this stuff, you need to be implementing technology. You need to be testing it. You don't have to like, just go all in, but you need to be testing it. You need to be having quarterly meetings to like, say, what are we doing? What are we not utilizing? Where can we get efficiencies and getting your staff involved to, you know, bring these things to the table. How are they going to use it and leverage it? I wanted to know more, I guess, Sarah, about your all's actual products. So Casemark, this is Casemark.com, right?
[00:18:19] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:18:19] Speaker B: Tell us a little bit, you know, some of the main features that you all have currently and how, how someone could, could use that.
[00:18:26] Speaker A: Yeah, so the overall vision as products are unveiled is to have sort of an easy button from beginning to end. And so from intake, getting the client in, organizing the information, all the way to litigation trial summaries to be used for appellate procedures. So that kind of thing. So currently we have deposition summaries, we have trial and hearing summaries. And the deposition summaries can come in the form of narratives, page line summaries. So it's kind of choose your own adventure, because for me, I'm going to use a page line summary at a trial. I'm going to use a narrative more for my clients and then add in my perspective to that narrative. So it just really depends on what it is that you're looking for. But those, those types of things, they're going to start doing tax documents. So you get a tax return in for someone, what is, what is their income? You know, is it a business income? So you can chart that. They'll do summaries of that. Now they're launching Med Crons in December and actually they're doing a deal where Med Crons and, you know, this blows my mind, but are going to be free for the month of December. I guess they chose eight a month where litigation is a little bit slower, but yeah. So free for the month of December. There's asked that you provide the feedback with the summary if you want it to be different. They also will do things like brand your AI products. So if you have a Medcron that you need to be branded with your logo, they can do that. There's some white labeling that's happening too, for different products. But yeah, there's eventually it's going to be from beginning to end. And if you think about the, you're like, why do I need a, a daily maybe hearing summary or a trial transcript? We've all been in that situation where you attend the trial or attend the hearing and then afterwards there might be some dispute after the fact what was in the hearing? Do you need to report back to your client about it? Or it was a two hour hearing and you're not going to remember completely all of the details or a trial transcript. You're preparing for the next day of trial. You need to update your client on a summary as to what had happened that day. You are preparing for closing arguments. I mean, in litigation there, there's a lot of different uses to consolidate all that information.
So that's kind of where we're starting and I anticipate it's going to be even better. The case summaries hopefully will be launching soon, which takes all that information that we're talking about for turnovers, summarizes it to tell you exactly where they're at in a case.
So that's what we're doing with Casemark and you know, always taking ideas as to what different attorneys need for their practice, crafting that and, and putting it out as for use.
[00:21:09] Speaker B: That's really cool. So I appreciate you sharing that. Yeah. Anyway, if you're listening right now and you're watching this live, wherever you may be seeing it on YouTube or LinkedIn or wherever, drop a comment, you could tag Sarah or me and see if you got any questions about AI or her product that her husband is building. I think the cool dynamic thing here is that you're using it and then you're like, you can go home and say, hey, it'd be nice if it had this or change this. So that's. So you're not just doing that separately, you're literally using it within your, you're in practice. So I think that's pretty unique.
[00:21:45] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I'm a litigator first. I run my own firm. That's my number one job. And then this is just something that my husband created who's he's knocking out of the park, but building this product so that I can do my job better and other people tend to want it as well. So it's pretty awesome.
[00:22:05] Speaker B: It's a win win right there.
[00:22:06] Speaker A: Yeah, right, totally.
[00:22:08] Speaker B: And so it's casemark.com, right? Pretty sure.
[00:22:13] Speaker A: And then we're on. You can find them on LinkedIn too. Casemarks on LinkedIn, you know the. But yeah. Casemark.com check out their deals in December which are going to be kind of amazing. Give them all the feedback you want, what you liked, what you didn't like and that'd be great. I know that one of the things that they're going to do specifically is take like the personal injury med cron and try to focus one towards more med mal cases. So if, if that's something that you're interested in, that might be a good place to start.
[00:22:44] Speaker B: That's awesome. I love it. It's like the power couple here taking over the, the whole industry.
How can people, I mean my guests, you know, I mean, I'm sorry, my guests, my listeners connect with you. What's the best way?
[00:22:58] Speaker A: You can always email
[email protected] and then you can follow me on my LinkedIn page. But. And that's how you can find me.
[00:23:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm mostly on LinkedIn too.
I'm on Instagram and Facebook. Facebook's more personal. LinkedIn I all business. So that's where this podcast will be posted at as well. But yeah, that's where I tend to from a business standpoint. Best place to connect with me as well. But yeah, check Sarah out, follow her again. If you for some reason can't find her, ask me. I'll connect you by email introduction. If you're interested in connecting with the software, I'm sure we can connect you with her husband. So anything you all need, please let me know. Ask any questions and as always, always looking to bring the best content, ideas and information to everybody. So if you have any questions or episodes you'd like to see, covered guests you recommend. Same for you, Sarah. You know anyone you feel would be awesome on the show. Always, always looking for awesome people. So like yourself. So I appreciate you coming on today.
[00:24:02] Speaker A: Thank you for having me, Kevin. It's been awesome to chatting with you.
[00:24:05] Speaker B: You as well. Anything you want to add or say before we, we roll?
[00:24:09] Speaker A: No, just don't be afraid of it. That's all I gotta say is try it out. What works for you. There's gonna be different things for different people. But don't be afraid.
Do your research, figure it out and it's gonna help you tenfold. I mean you might be busy now, but you're gonna be busy in the future if you're not quite grasping how to use it.
[00:24:30] Speaker B: So use AI, learn it, leverage it.
Don't be afraid of it or you're going to be left behind. So that's a common theme, so I love it. Thank you so much, Sarah, and we'll talk to you all soon. Thank you, everybody, for joining, and we'll see you on the next episode.
