Stop Running a Practice. Build a Business.

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign, Most firms survive. The best ones scale. Welcome to the Managing Partners Podcast, where law firm leaders learn to think bigger. I'm Kevin. Daisy. Let's jump in. What's up, my podcast listeners? Thanks for tuning in again to the Managing Partners podcast. Always appreciate you tuning in and always appreciate my guests coming on to share so we can all learn together and run our businesses better. So I'm excited to have Brooke Lively on the show. We actually met at the Max law con in 2025 in the fall, and great conference, great content, great people, and was excited to connect with Brooke and her company. And she does a lot of amazing things and I got to learn more about her. And she has a book coming out and all these good things. So I think she's gonna be a huge help for everyone listening. So tune in. Brooke's got some cool stuff to share. So, Brooke, welcome to the show. [00:01:14] Speaker B: Thanks, Kevin. I appreciate it. So you said we met at Max Law. Am I going to see you in, gosh, just a couple of months. [00:01:22] Speaker A: You are. There's no way I'm missing it. [00:01:24] Speaker B: So awesome. [00:01:26] Speaker A: It's going to be Atlanta this year in October. I can't think of the dates off the top of my head, if you can, but I can't think of the actual dates. [00:01:33] Speaker B: I can't, because for some reason, I thought it was in May. All right, October. I'm in. [00:01:37] Speaker A: Well, everyone listening, stop what you're doing, Google Max, walk on and find out for yourself. But I'll be there, no matter what. Looking forward to it. Well, Brooke, tell. Tell us your background. And, you know, I know it's interesting because we've already chatted, but, yeah, tell us. Tell us your background and what you do to help, you know, law firms out there, and. And then we'll talk about your book. [00:02:04] Speaker B: So I think really what I do is I help law firms scale and grow profitably, and I do that a couple of different ways. The first company I started was a fractional CFO company for lawyers. And I started it because I had been running my family's law firm, and people started coming to me and saying, can you do for us what you do for your family? And that was when I realized that lawyers really don't run. Run like a business. They really ran practices that, you know, we could run it like a business and it would make a difference. And so I started that company, and it's been really successful, and I have loved owning it. It got to the point where I had a great coo and she started running it, and and it didn't need me anymore. And she's like, what are you gonna do? [00:02:53] Speaker A: I'm like, I don't know. [00:02:55] Speaker B: While we were running it, we noticed something interesting. We could kind of divide our clients into three buckets. Those people that started working with us and just immediately had incredible results. Like if you looked at a graph, everything was high into the right, just high hockey stick. And then we had people that started working with us that made steady progress. And then there was bucket C. Like you could, you could hardly tell they were working with us. And we're like, okay, we're a bunch of data driven women. So we're like, what are we doing with group A that we're not doing with group C? So we dug down. Turns out we were using the same tools, giving them the same advice, we were delivering the same product. The difference was group A was executing and group C was not. We thought that was fascinating. So then we wanted to understand why, so we dug a little deeper. And we discovered that with the exception of one firm, all the firms that were executing were running on EOs. So we're like, okay, there's something here. And we weren't surprised because we as a company ran on eos. So for those of you that don't know, EOS is the entrepreneurial operating system them. [00:04:11] Speaker A: It's been mentioned a few times on this podcast. [00:04:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, look, you've got the book. You're more prepared than I am. So eos, EOS really became our number one outgoing referral. Every law firm, we're like, you guys need to be on this. And I got really consistent feedback from our clients and they said two things. One, I can't find an EOS implementer that will work with law firms. And the second one is, all right, we finally found someone that will work with a law firm, but they don't understand the legal industry. So when my CFO company didn't need me anymore and Pam asked what I was going to do, I was like, I don't know. She's like, I think you need to be an EOS implementer specifically for law firms. And so that's what I'm doing. I've spent, you know, the past 15 years working with law firms. But before that, I grew up in a law firm. My father's an attorney, my brother's an attorney, two of my uncles, pretty much every guy I've ever dated, we just. [00:05:15] Speaker A: Like to hang out with lawyers. I'm the same way. [00:05:17] Speaker B: I do six foot two, left handed lawyers, to be really specific. That wear glasses. So, you know, if you've got any single ones, send them my way. [00:05:26] Speaker A: All right, you heard that, everyone? We'll start the bidding at. [00:05:29] Speaker B: I'll get my checkbook out. [00:05:32] Speaker A: So you, you know, you kind of got to where you're at by process of elimination, looking at the data. What. Why are our clients over here doing so well and these ones aren't? And that's an interesting conclusion. And then now you're. You're filling the void, the role that was missing. [00:05:48] Speaker B: I am. [00:05:49] Speaker A: That's excellent. So for everyone listening, like, what's the company that you have been running that you had the COO running now, the name of that company, and then your. Your new. Your new venture, if you will. [00:06:02] Speaker B: My CFO company is called Cathcap. And so you can find them pretty easily at cathcap. Com. And my new venture is, you know, I'm delivering eos, but if you are looking for me, and you mentioned that, I have a book that just came out. The book, our website, all of that is called Scaling Law, because that's what I do. I help law firms scale and grow. And so the book I wrote is all about how to use EOS to scale your law firm. Because I hear so often these attorneys that are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm in this group. Everyone's talking about eos, but it doesn't work for law firms. I'm like, yes, yes, it does. And they're like, but you have to really change it. And I'm like, no, you actually don't. And that's why I wrote the book, because I wanted people to see that you can implement eos purely and get incredible results. So the vast majority of my book, I tell you how to use the tools, I tell you what to do, but I also tell you the stories of my clients that have implemented the tools and the impact that it had on their firms. And that's fun. I. I mean, I think that's much more entertaining than reading a textbook, frankly. [00:07:20] Speaker A: Well, I mean, people want to, you know, people like to hear stories of people just like them or firms just like them doing it and executing it. It's just, you know, you could say social. You know, I hear this all the time. I don't really. We don't even, like, sell social media, really. But social media doesn't work for our firm. Like, that's a ridiculous statement at this point. But, you know, five, 10 years ago, when I used to do a lot of social media, like, yeah, yeah, that won't work for us. You know, we're not going to dance around on TikTok, you know, but it's, you know, it can work for you, but it's just. You're not interested to figure out how it's going to work for you. Yeah. [00:07:50] Speaker B: And so. Yeah, so that's why. That's why I wrote it. I wanted people to see really what it looked like and what it can do. And so it's a bunch of stories of a bunch of firms just like yours and how they fix some very specific problems, frankly. It's got the good and the bad in there. [00:08:13] Speaker A: I love it. You gotta do that. [00:08:16] Speaker B: I'm pretty candid and honest and open, so I'm gonna tell you the pitfalls. [00:08:20] Speaker A: It's. I can kind of almost at this point spot a firm that I'm having a conversation with if they're on EOS or if they're in a mastermind or. And sometimes even which one at this point? Because I just talked to so many, you know, law firm owners, and it's like, are you in this group? They're like, yeah, yeah, how'd you know that? Or are you on the U.S. yeah, yeah, yeah, how'd you know that? So, you know, you can kind of spot them at this point, but it's. It helps so many firms, the ones that aren't on it, that they don't know what to do. They're kind of stuck. You know, just being a good lawyer and doing good law work is a very small part of running the law practice. [00:08:54] Speaker B: I think more than anything, EOS is a structure. And it. And it gives you a structure on which to run. But what I love about it more than anything else is so many of the law firm owners. You know what? I'm going to put myself in this category. I am 100% an ADD, like visionary entrepreneur, going in a thousand different directions with a hundred ideas a minute, all of which I think are freaking brilliant. [00:09:28] Speaker A: They're all. [00:09:28] Speaker B: Never had a bad idea. I'm just a constant source of, you know, I basically speak gold. But, yeah, ask the rest of my team how they feel about that. But, you know, you. There's so much going on. One of the things that's amazing about EOS is the power of focus. And if you think about focus, there's a guy named Al Reese and he did a study on it, and he talks about the sun, and it puts off billions of kilowatts of power every day. And it rains down on. On the Earth. And the worst that happens is we get a Little sunburn. Well, you can put on a hat and some sunscreen and that takes care of it. Right? But if you take just a couple of watts and you focus it in a laser, it will cut a diamond. So the power of focus is huge. And when you with EOS, you stop being so distracted. You stop worrying about 20 things, you stop doing 20 things kind of half assed, and you do three to five things really well. You finish those projects and then you can move on to the next one. That's why, you know, when we looked at those three buckets of firms that we were working with, those firms that were doing so well were executing because they were prioritizing the things that would make a difference and they were completing it. [00:10:59] Speaker A: So you have consistent completion versus trying to run a million miles an hour and not accomplishing anything consistently and nothing ever gets finished. [00:11:08] Speaker B: I mean, I don't know about you, but before eos, I certainly started a thousand things. And in my book I talk about one of our owners, Mike Smith, who would have these awesome planning meetings in. [00:11:21] Speaker A: January. [00:11:23] Speaker B: And he'd lay out the year in and by February, basically they'd forgotten it all. And we're just, you know, fighting whatever fire came up. But now after implementing eos, we plan the year and we keep coming back every quarter to make sure that we're still focused on it, that we're still moving in the right direction. And he has 90 day rocks. [00:11:45] Speaker A: I was going to say you call them rocks. [00:11:47] Speaker B: So yeah, he and his team execute on that, keep them focused to keep them moving forward. [00:11:53] Speaker A: So I mean, and as a visionary, adhd, whatever, that's definitely me. You can still have all these crazy ideas, but okay, what's the three to five? [00:12:02] Speaker B: I have a legal pad of the ones I've had this week. [00:12:05] Speaker A: But what's the three to five? This quarter we're going to actually focus. [00:12:08] Speaker B: On, you know, last quarter it was finishing my book. I had to get it finished. And to the publisher, I think my final sign off date was December 18th. Had to have it done. That was, and, and so that was my big rock. [00:12:22] Speaker A: Yeah. So it's, you know, it's just as entrepreneurs, we're all over the place and again, we're jumping from fire to fire. We have our own ideas, we see the shiny objects. We want to even stray from our own business that, that's working well sometimes and be like, oh, I can do this over here. And so this helps you center and, and stay on track and again accomplish things consistently that move towards the bigger goals. Right. And that's what wins. [00:12:46] Speaker B: Wow. And, Kevin, you make a good point. What we're talking about is getting traction. It's the name of the book. Right. But that's only one of the six key components. It's great to have traction. It's great to be accomplishing things. But if you don't know where you want to go and if you can't communicate that to your whole team, then you've got everybody rowing in a different direction, and you're not going to actually get anywhere. So there are six areas that you really want to strengthen with eos, and the first one is vision. Where are we going? How are we going to get there? And making sure that everybody in the firm understands that. The second one is people. No firm is going to succeed without having the right people in the right seat. And when I say right people, I'm talking about, you know, and that's a Jim Collins concept. [00:13:33] Speaker A: People on the bus in the right seat. Right. [00:13:35] Speaker B: That's right. So we've got to have the right people. Those people who are. Are a culture match who fit the personality and the values of your firm. And they've gotta be in the right seat. They have to understand what that job entails. They've gotta want to do that job. So often people don't want the job. They want the title. They want the money. They want. Want to please you because they've been with you for a long time. You want them to take the job, so they take a job they have no idea how to do because, you know, Kevin asked them, and they don't want to let Kevin down. [00:14:06] Speaker A: Well, right. You know, the whole debacle of right person, wrong seat, you know. Yeah, that's easy to. To have happen. Well, I just like them. So we got to figure out a spot to stick them. [00:14:16] Speaker B: Right. You know? Well, and then there's the Peter principle, where we promote someone to the point of their incompetence. That's not fair to anybody. The next thing is data. And, you know, I'm a CFO at heart. I love data. That's why Gino Wickman, the guy who wrote Traction, put a quote on one of my books, one of my earlier books, that said I was one of the best people in the industry. [00:14:40] Speaker A: Wow, that's awesome. [00:14:41] Speaker B: To help with the data component, as I help attorneys stop running their firms on gut instinct and start running it on data, on actual information, so that you can make a decision once and you don't wake up in the middle of the night and like, oh, Is that the right thing to do? I don't know. Maybe I should go the other way. What do I. Let's get you 5 to 15 numbers that you can look at and quickly assess what's going on in your firm and see if you need to dig down anywhere else. And then that's. That brings us to the next component, which is issues. You can look at those 5 to 15 numbers, you can look at your people, and you can see where the problems are in your firm. You're not going to get anywhere if you can't solve problems. And I'm not talking about treating the symptoms. I'm talking about digging down and finding the root cause of the problem. I don't. I don't know about you, Kevin. Kevin, have you ever solved a problem and then it comes back like two weeks later with a different client name on it? [00:15:41] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure. [00:15:42] Speaker B: I mean, that's not solving problem. That's treating the symptom. We've got to learn to solve, like, that root problem to find that root problem, solve that. And a lot of the times it's a process issue, which is the fifth component. How do we do things the right and best way? The first time, every time. That's what allows you to scale. That's what increases productivity, that's what increases profit. Because you're not touching everything two and three times. And it makes the firm more fun because frankly, you don't have to yell at people about doing stuff the wrong way. [00:16:16] Speaker A: Yeah. And then your process will tweak or change based on situations there. Sounds like we gotta fix the process. Fix the process. This shouldn't happen again. [00:16:24] Speaker B: And then, you know, the last one we've talked about, it's traction. That's where you really bring that vision down to the ground and execute on it with everybody in your firm rowing in the same direction. The incredible thing about really sharing your vision with the right people who are sitting in the right seats, who have the right skill set, who are making decisions based on data when you're solving the problems, when they come up. So problems only come up once. And we know how to do things because we've got processes in place. The firm is significantly less reliant on the owner. [00:17:00] Speaker A: It's actually almost better without the owner at that point. Right. [00:17:04] Speaker B: That's totally true. But like that. I had one person in my book talk about the deli line outside his office. He was like, it looked like a deli counter. Like there were people lined up down the. Down the hallway waiting to talk to him, somebody else in my book I refer to as, you know, a really expensive Magic 8 ball because everybody came to him for the answer to the question. But when they know where you're going, when they share your core values, when they've got the data, they are empowered to make the decisions. They don't have to ask you. I mean, God, Kevin, wouldn't that be a nice day? [00:17:39] Speaker A: It's the best moment when they. They say, oh, yeah, we. We fixed that. What do you mean? Yeah, we handled it. You look at it and you go, wow, they did it better than I would have done it. [00:17:48] Speaker B: And isn't that kind of a freaky moment? I've always said, oh, yeah, I hire people that are smarter than I am. And then I used to go in and try to, like, micromanage them. And Pam, our coo, our. Our. I met Pam integrator at Cathcap, was really funny. I was doing something. It was during the pandemic, and I'm like, okay, I'll go do that. And she's like, are you really the right person to do that? Like, well, I think I'm the person with the time to do that. She's like, mm, but are you the person with the skill set? And I'm like, okay, the answer is apparently no. And so she gave it to somebody else. Damn. What came back was awesome. And I never could have done it. It's like, holy cow. Like, that was an awesome moment. [00:18:29] Speaker A: Let people do their thing. They brought them on for a reason. Right? So, yeah. Yeah. It's what you described a second ago with the vision and the values and then. Right people, right seats, all those things. When you have that. And I believe I have. We have that here for sure. And we have over 50 people, 55 people, I think. And we're hiring, like, eight right now on this. So. So we're. We're moving. But it doesn't seem like it's that crazy or chaotic, like. Cause everyone's kind of in place and what, that. The culture, right, that you're. You develop there. You know how different that looks to someone. That's not a good fit. Like, they don't want to be part of that because it's too much of. It's, like, against the grain. So it completely keeps out the terrorists or the. The bad actors as you grow. And the. The team you've built protects it at all costs. It's that. I always call it the. The mental ownership of your company. They don't have physical equity that they mentally have. Have Ownership. [00:19:25] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, they truly are stakeholders in scaling law. I talk about a particular firm where once they implemented eos, a group of people from the team came to them and said, these two people, not a core value match. And they have to go. Basically, the team fired two people. They're like, these are not our people. And he was like, okay, great. They didn't answer to him. He's like, y' all go for it. [00:19:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've. We fire clients all the time. Referral partners, employees, whatever. You know, it's. And it's clear. I think it's. And with hiring now, it's a hell yes. I got this. I think. I don't know if it's from traction or from eo, but it's either a hell yes or a no, or, oh. [00:20:11] Speaker B: No, no, no, no, no, no. [00:20:12] Speaker A: Something like that. [00:20:13] Speaker B: If it's not a hell yes, it is a hell no. [00:20:17] Speaker A: It's a hell no. Exactly. There's no gray area. [00:20:20] Speaker B: There's. There's no yes or no. And they're sure as shit in the Maybe. [00:20:25] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. But if you can get to that point. But here's the thing. If you have a law firm that you've built like this, right? The one you're describing, you know how easy it is to get people. You have people on the bench waiting, hey, I've heard so many good things. Everyone talks so good about your company. I talked to this person at the front desk. They love it there. It's crazy. What's. What do you guys got going on over there? Like, you got the. What kind of Kool Aid are you serving? You know, and then they want to be there and this. You're not looking and searching for the next hire. [00:20:52] Speaker B: It's. [00:20:53] Speaker A: You know, they're. You get to pick and choose from the best talent that's out there. [00:20:56] Speaker B: Had a client call me one time, and she was like, okay, something's really shifted. I'm like, what's different? She's like, you know how I used to have a hard time finding employees? I'm like, yeah. She's like, they're calling me now asking for jobs, and isn't that a nice place to be? [00:21:11] Speaker A: Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. Sometimes I have. I'll share, like, hey, we're looking for this or that. Just to share it. I'm not the hiring manager, and I. But I'll have, like, friends or family or whoever I might know. Be like, I would love that job. Great. You should apply for it. [00:21:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:27] Speaker A: Don't talk to me but over here. [00:21:29] Speaker B: Here'S how you apply. [00:21:30] Speaker A: I literally, I'm not going to tell my team anything like, oh, I, I went to high school with this person or I, I know them, doesn't have any weight at all. You know what I mean? [00:21:38] Speaker B: Right. [00:21:39] Speaker A: Like, you gotta go through the product. You have to interview with Brooke and if Brooke likes you and you fit the match of our culture, maybe we'll see you on the team one day, you know, so. But it's, yeah, it's not the old school of like, hey, I know this person. Hook em up and have them skip some process in the, in the mean, like, no, that's, that's terrible. [00:21:56] Speaker B: Well, and, and I can remember, I don't know, a while ago, there was a guy who lived in this world, coached a lot of lawyers, and he would talk about how, how many times you had to fill a position until you found the right person. And you, and he would say, you have to hire like, I don't know, something like three to five people until you got it right. When you run on eos, when you know who you are at your core and you know what a culture match is, you don't hire three to five people to get the right one. We made that mistake in our CFO company because we used to hire two people and one would fall out for some reason. They didn't have the skills. They weren't, you know, something. And we really worked for a couple of quarters on our hiring process and we started hiring two because it's easier to train two than one. [00:22:48] Speaker A: Yep. And you know, one's gonna fall off. [00:22:50] Speaker B: And no one's falling off anymore. No one's falling off for like a year and a half. [00:22:55] Speaker A: Nice. [00:22:56] Speaker B: Or two years. So we're like, okay, well, we really fixed that problem. [00:23:02] Speaker A: Now we need more clients. [00:23:05] Speaker B: Now I've got these really expensive CFOs and we need to fill them up. But that's a great problem to have. [00:23:11] Speaker A: Yeah, that's awesome. I love it. [00:23:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:13] Speaker A: The other way is a terrible idea like that. Basically that's trial and error. You have, you have such a bad structure and you have no clue what you're doing that you have to hire three to five people to get one to stick. [00:23:23] Speaker B: And how, Kevin, think about how expensive that is. So if that's an attorney, an attorney in recruiting costs, like hard costs can cost 50% of their salary. So that is if you have a recruiter that is time spent for other lost productivity for other people on the team interviewing the cost of ads, all of that. So let's say we're hiring a hundred $thousand attorney, $50,000 just to recruit the person. It takes them at least three months to be completely productive. So they're going to be 50% productive for three months and then it takes about three months if you're really good, to find an attorney. So that's four and a half months of lost production plus $50,000. If you're paying them $100,000, they should be producing about $400,000. So that's over $150,000 every time that position turns over. [00:24:31] Speaker A: Yeah, let's do that three to five times. [00:24:33] Speaker B: If it turns over three times in a year, that's really stinking expensive. Wouldn't you rather get it right the first time? [00:24:46] Speaker A: Thank you for tuning in to the show today. I have taken things to the next level and I've started the managing Partners Mastermind. We're a peer group of owners looking for connection, clarity and growth strategies. So if you're looking to grow your law firm and not do it alone, please consider joining the group. Bots are limited, so I ask for anyone to reach out to me directly through LinkedIn in and we can set up a one on one call to make sure it's a fit. Now back to the show. Yeah, I mean folks, anyone listening? I mean you can't afford not to do these things and get on board like any os. I know there's other systems out there too, but I've heard people be like, well, we can just do it ourselves, you know, don't get an implementer, you know, and that we were in that same boat, you know, I hear a lot of people talk about that like, well, it's a modified. It's just our own thing. [00:25:36] Speaker B: I did it. I. I'm like, I can implement eos. And so we implemented it and we've been on EOS forever. And we implemented when we were four people and it went beautifully. It went so well. And then we kind of, we had four people. I know how hard. There was no leadership team. There was team. So then we kind of fell off the, you know, we kind of fell off the bicycle, whatever the expression is. And so then we tried to reimplement and it didn't go as well. And so I sent Gina Wickman this email that if you had printed it out, probably would have been like 43 pages. And he emailed back, he's like, Brooke, it would take me all day just to unravel what's in this email. I'm like, Damon Gino, okay, how much? He's like, ha, ha, nice try. You need an implementer. Answer these questions and I'm going to give you somebody. And he did. [00:26:28] Speaker A: Nice. [00:26:29] Speaker B: And so Justin comes in, we're talking on the phone, and he's like, so there are these three foundational days. And you know, the first one, we do these things and we really kind of figure out where we're going for the next 90 days. And then we spend two days working on your VTO, your Vision Traction Organizer, and answering these eight questions that really nail down your vision. And I'm like, oh, we've got that nailed. And he very nicely, as if I was a toddler, patted my head and said, okay. Metaphorically patted my head and said, okay, well, we'll take a look at it and if we can get that all done in one day, then we'll just do it in one day. It was such a disaster. We didn't even get it finished in two days. And I've got a number of people in my book who did the same thing. They thought we can self implement. And you know, Kevin, self implementing is better than not implementing at all. [00:27:21] Speaker A: Sure. That was kind of what I was getting at. Like, there are benefits. Read this book and do what you can. You know, you can't get with them. [00:27:28] Speaker B: Like, then they've implemented with me or another implementer, and they're like, we were just scratching the surface. [00:27:34] Speaker A: We were, we were at a EO Entrepreneurs Organization workshop. [00:27:39] Speaker B: Which one? [00:27:40] Speaker A: It was the accelerator. I think it was. I don't know if I think it was the People day, but we were working on vision and core values. And me and my business partner had already gone through that exercise and we had them for a while. We're like, oh, this'll be a breeze. We already have core values and we have a vision and a mission. And that was the goal for that day, is to get those three things kind of solidified or at least to go back home and finish them. But it's just a workshop day, right? So we're like, ah, we got this. And we got torn apart by everyone in the room. Like, even people that didn't have their own core values. We, like, Kevin, read off your core values. And like, we did, and they were very, very basic things like honesty. And it's like, well, shouldn't everyone on your team be honest? [00:28:24] Speaker B: You know, it's like table stakes. Come on, Kevin. [00:28:28] Speaker A: We've, we've, we've done better. [00:28:29] Speaker B: Do you really hire liars? [00:28:31] Speaker A: Exactly. And so that's. But at the time we were, that's kind of where we were. Like, you know, this is. Yeah, we just want decent people to show up. [00:28:38] Speaker B: So, yeah, we got a great Harvard Review article about types of core values. [00:28:45] Speaker A: Well, please share it with me. [00:28:46] Speaker B: I'll. I will send that to you. And actually, we should put a link to it in the show notes. Let's do that. [00:28:51] Speaker A: We can do that. Yeah. So my editor, folks, editors will get a link and we'll. We'll add that to the show notes or to the social posts that we do. [00:29:00] Speaker B: But yeah, it talks about core values, aspirational values. So the values you don't have, but you want to have and the pluses and minuses of those. It talks about accidental values, things that develop that might have served you in the past but don't serve you going forward. [00:29:18] Speaker A: Oh, okay. I like that. [00:29:20] Speaker B: And then the values like the ones you said, I mean, they're pay to play if you. If you're not honest. I mean, if we did that, then everyone's core values would be, be honest. Don't be a felon. No axe murderers. [00:29:34] Speaker A: They'll be late. Yeah, well, we. Yeah, we've modified them and we. We love them now and we stick to them pretty good and they work great. And then we use them every day, all day, every day here. And I got a whole. I've had episodes where I just talk about a whole process of how we've gamified our core values to where they're used every day. So I think that's pretty cool. But now we live by em, completely hire fire and make every decision by. [00:29:55] Speaker B: Em, Hire fire, promote, reward, everything. So interesting. We got our core values. We originally did our core values. I did our core values and an EO accelerator, People day. [00:30:08] Speaker A: There you go. [00:30:09] Speaker B: And when we came back and did them going through eos, because we really lived those core values, basically, I sobbed the entire time we were working on core values. So it's so funny when I'm working with people that have had core values and the owners are like, we have core values. We're not looking at them. I'm like, I'm going to ask you to go through this. And I know it's really hard, and it is like I am attacking your soul. And I understand that because my soul has been ripped out in this process. So I'm with you, but we're going to do it. [00:30:42] Speaker A: That's funny. [00:30:42] Speaker B: We came up with the same ones. [00:30:44] Speaker A: Really. [00:30:44] Speaker B: They changed the verbiage a little bit, and they got rid of one which we actually called the LARA rule, but it was, it was around responsiveness. And you know, we would return emails and phone calls within all emails and phone calls would be acknowledged by the end of the day, however you define the day and addressed within 24 hours. And they were like, yeah, that's a pay to play core value. [00:31:12] Speaker A: It's gotta go. [00:31:13] Speaker B: That, that's just a simple expectation. [00:31:15] Speaker A: Yeah, it was, it was quite an exercise to get through and, and yeah, we, we had to go through. [00:31:20] Speaker B: Now look, you don't have turnover. You have the right people, the people who are the wrong people in your interviewing process, in your hiring process. I'm sure at some point you go through and you say, these are our core values and if they don't appeal to you, you will be stinking miserable here. So drop out of our process right now. [00:31:39] Speaker A: Yeah, they self eliminate if that scares them. [00:31:41] Speaker B: Yeah. And they're like, I'm out because you people drank the Kool Aid and I'm not drinking that Kool Aid. [00:31:46] Speaker A: Yeah, good. We don't want you here. [00:31:48] Speaker B: Yeah. And the right people are like, oh my God, I totally feel that way. [00:31:52] Speaker A: That's powerful for sure. Well, Brooke, thank you so much for sharing. It sounds like we've gone down some similar paths with how we've used the os, implemented it. Read the book. Actually, this is my signed copy by Gino, I think. Oh, no, this is. [00:32:06] Speaker B: I don't even have a signed copy. [00:32:08] Speaker A: I mean, I'll talk to Gino, see if he can hook you up. I saw him one time in Louisville. [00:32:14] Speaker B: I was going to say, not Louisville, Kentucky. [00:32:16] Speaker A: Yeah, Something about Nashville. No, I saw him there in person and yeah, had my book and got a signed copy. [00:32:22] Speaker B: Awesome. [00:32:22] Speaker A: Well, great book. But the book you should be checking out is Scaling Law. Right? [00:32:27] Speaker B: Yeah, Scaling Law. And the thing that I like about it, Traction, is an awesome book and it gives you all the information. Get a Grip is the story of how a company implemented EOS and what happened. Scaling Law is a combination of the two. So it tells you how to implement eos, it tells the stories of law firms and it is all good geared for a law firm. So it's law firm examples, it's law firm language. It's everything that an attorney can identify with and understand, which I think will. [00:33:05] Speaker A: Help them with making, you know, that it can work for them, that they can implement it with their. In their. [00:33:11] Speaker B: Yeah. When the example is manufacturing, you're like, huh? [00:33:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't do that. We don't have widgets here. [00:33:19] Speaker B: There are no widgets. I have people's brains. [00:33:22] Speaker A: It's just so much easier when you, when you put it in context of what you do. You know, if you're in a sales book. If you're in a sales book and it's talking about selling cars, you're like, that doesn't apply to me. I can't sell. [00:33:32] Speaker B: I can't sell. A warranty. Yeah, there's no aftermarket warranty on a contract. [00:33:37] Speaker A: Well, Brooke, it's been a pleasure to, to talk with you and just learn what you're doing and kind of your background, your story and how you've helped law firms and. Yeah, just excited to get your book and just have more law firms prescribe to Eos or a system like it because it's, it's definitely life changing for you, the owner, but it changes your employees and their families as well. [00:34:02] Speaker B: It does. You know, John Morgan of Morgan and Morgan has a conference every year called revcon and he got up. When was revcon? It was in early October. And he stood up on stage in October 25and said, Every single law firm should be running on Eos. [00:34:26] Speaker A: There you go. [00:34:26] Speaker B: You're right. You need the structure. [00:34:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense. [00:34:30] Speaker B: He's obviously been successful, so he knows something. [00:34:33] Speaker A: He's done pretty well. [00:34:35] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:34:35] Speaker A: He's got a great book too. Great book. Can't teach Hungry. [00:34:39] Speaker B: That's right. But he's going to run out of people to hire because he only likes to hire people who were paper boys and I don't think those exist anymore. So does anyone get a physical paper anymore? [00:34:50] Speaker A: I think my. [00:34:51] Speaker B: I don't think they're delivered by 13 year olds on bikes. [00:34:54] Speaker A: No, the paper route. My son's 14, so that's not an option for him to do, I don't think anymore. But. Well, we look forward to checking out your book. Everyone, please check out Brooke's book. Follow her, connect with her. What's the best way for folks to connect and follow you? [00:35:09] Speaker B: I think the best way to find me is Brooke Scaling law dot com. [00:35:14] Speaker A: There you go. Awesome. We'll send her a message. Connect. If you want a personal introduction or by email, please reach out. I know a lot of law firm owners that listen to this show. If that's the kind of help you're looking for, I would say definitely reach out, connect with Brooke and just if you have questions or you're not sure what us is, you should listen to the show more for one. But, but please reach out and connect with her and look forward to seeing you at Max Law Con, Brooke. And whether it's in April, May, or October, I'll see you there. [00:35:43] Speaker B: We'll see each other. Hopefully sooner than that. [00:35:46] Speaker A: Sure. Pop into my inbox or my DMs anytime to help any way I can. But everyone, have a great day. Thank you so much for tuning in, and we'll see you soon, Sam.