Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:18] Speaker B: Most firms survive. The best ones scale.
Welcome to the Managing Partners podcast, where law firm leaders learn to think bigger.
I'm Kevin. Daisy.
Let's jump in. What is going on podcast land.
Welcome everyone to another episode and thank you so much for joining me and listening to this show.
We love to dive in and help everyone listening just run their business better, serve more people.
And it's all about law firm management, law firm business, and always look for the best folks to bring on the show. And I have a great guest today, Jamie Ur out of Florida. We met at Max lawcon and Max lawcon, I guess, was on a break for a few years. They just came back this year. It was an awesome event and Jane was the emcee at the event. So she was running around on stage introducing people but herself owns a law firm, very successful law firm down in Florida, and wanted to have her on the show to talk about what she's done, the good, the bad, the ugly, what's been successful and share that with you all today. So, Jane, welcome to the show.
[00:01:26] Speaker A: Thanks so much for having me, Kevin.
[00:01:28] Speaker B: Yeah, excited to have you on the, you know, at the Max Law Con, she was high energy, running around, telling us to be quiet if we were talking. And she was handling the whole, the whole event very well. And, you know, I didn't know her at the time.
We probably got to chat briefly when we were there, so. But that's the curse of the mc, right? They have to, they have to take care of business.
She did a good job. So if you're looking for an emcee, she could be your person.
So, Jane, tell us about your law firm a little bit at a base level. And we're going to dive deeper into kind of your whole story and kind of how you got to where you're at and what's worked well for you.
[00:02:06] Speaker A: Well, thank you so much for having me again and I'm honored by your compliment. I did my best to keep everybody in line at the Max Law Con and I'm looking forward to doing it again next year in Atlanta.
So anyone who's starting a law firm, Maximum Lawyer and Max Law Khan, are such a great resource. I really feel like my firm took off after I joined Maximum Lawyer and the Guild because I really learned from them so much about what you have to measure and what you have to keep track of so that you can improve and grow.
My whole story, my firm, what it does currently is we are a business law firm. We have five lawyers and we're located in Miami, Florida. And practice throughout the state of Florida. How I started was a little bit less glamorous. I was let go from my first position as a lawyer, and I'd done every job in a law firm, from file clerk to secretary, receptionist, paralegal, and then I'd been an associate, but only kind of briefly. And it was the subprime mortgage crisis. I came out of law school in 2009, so the economy wasn't doing so well. And my partner from law school, my trial partner, had also been let go from his firm in California. And so we thought, we'll just start a firm and see how it goes.
And that wasn't really my first choice, to be honest. I had other jobs that I was in interested in. Like, I would have loved to go to the public defender or there was a federal clerkship that I had been offered and declined because, to be honest, I would rather watch paint dry than sit in a library and write all day. I'm kind of a people person. I like to talk, I like to interact.
And I, I had done judicial internships with several judges, and I could do the work, but it was not pleasure to do. It was like a grind for me that wasn't available anymore anyway, because the guy who had taken the position wanted to renew. So I kind of didn't have an option. One of my mentors in the legal community said, jane, why don't you just start a firm? You could do it. And all you have to do is get an office in a shared space and try every case that people can't settle. And the next thing you know, you're a big time trial lawyer. And that's how it works. Easy peasy, easy peasy.
And I, I was like, well, I don't know, maybe if Tom Gamma thinks I can do it, I could do it. And so I, I read the, the book by Jay Fenberg, which is how to start and build you'd Law practice, which is a fantastic book I recommend to everybody starting a firm.
[00:04:59] Speaker B: Nice.
[00:05:00] Speaker A: And I pretty much looked at people in the legal community who I admired and saw what they had done. And I, I thought, how do I make myself like that? Because, you know, there's a recipe for everything and, and it's in a book, right?
[00:05:19] Speaker B: So I love that you're so, so true.
[00:05:22] Speaker A: It's true. Like you want to build a carburetor or bake a cake or anything at all under the sun, you just read a book about it and boom, you can do it. So that was my belief and approach. And so I. I read that book, and we got business cards. In our first month, we made $350.
[00:05:41] Speaker B: Nice.
[00:05:42] Speaker A: Spent $100 on a virtual office. And what else did I buy?
I think the rest of the money we spent on business cards. But we did throw a big party, and we invited, like, 200 people to show everybody that we were in business. And we really didn't earn very much in revenue. It was under $10,000 a month. But to be honest, I was focused mostly on emulating the people that I really admire. Like, the person that I was emulating was a guy named Irvin Gonzalez, and he sadly passed away, but he had written an article that said, These are the 10 things that you need to do to become preeminent in your field. Or actually, it wasn't even him. It was his wife, Janice Gonzalez, and she does public relations.
So I was reading her blog because I figured she must be helping him with his career.
And this 10 things, I just thought, wow, that's the. That's the recipe right there. I. I can follow this. And so they. The 10 things are make a logo, make business cards, make a website, go to events, talk about what you do, follow up with the people who you meet, speak, write, get board certified in your discipline, and become a leader in a local organization.
So I thought, well, that's. That's, you know, 10 steps I could follow.
I played rugby when I was in college and law school, and one of my teammates was a graphic designer. So she made us a beautiful logo with the Dade county courthouse, the antique, historic Dade county courthouse.
And we made very cool business cards that were like frosted plastic, so they looked like glass. My partner, Alan Grinberg, would drop business cards in the trays at the security at the courthouse so that people would pick them up and think, this is a cool lawyer. I want to. I want to call them. And we sort of just did guerrilla marketing stuff like that. But unfortunately, after a year or so of working together, we had not called, cracked the business of law code.
So Alan was given the opportunity to join the public defender's office, and he went forward with that, and we parted ways on great terms. And he now has his own firm doing criminal defense, and he's very successful.
[00:08:04] Speaker B: That's excellent.
[00:08:05] Speaker A: But I ended up partnering with a second lawyer, Adam Gersten, and we were partners for seven years. But during that time, he had built a bar in Miami's Wynwood district called Grant, which is very successful.
And he built another and another and another. So now he has something like six or seven different restaurant bars that are, they're great places to hang out. And so he doesn't practice anymore. But finally I ended up being J. Marren Associates, which is the current iteration of the firm.
And along the way I really focused on becoming a really good lawyer and learning the practice. And I, I feel like being a part of the bar associations was a tremendous asset for me because I would put on these CLE programs and as a baby lawyer, I would learn the cutting edge information about new laws or new areas of law like cannabis or cybersecurity or all kinds of areas of practice that just, just were invented. And that way I was on an even playing field with the experienced attorneys.
[00:09:22] Speaker B: No, that's awesome. That's great. So you're up to speed on what's the new things that the experienced lawyers also.
It's new to them too, right?
[00:09:31] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:09:32] Speaker B: So you focus a lot on being a better lawyer. You did follow some steps, which I love that list of 10. Some are basic, but it's like it makes it easy something to follow, do these things.
Being part of a local board has been one of the cool, you know, best things I've ever done. When I was building my firm for marketing, it's just being involved in the community, but, but I remember when me and me were chatting backstage, it's like you wish you kind of spent more time and effort on the business of law and running the practice.
[00:10:04] Speaker A: Absolutely.
It is a completely different discipline to be a good attorney technically at your craft and to be a good business leader and owner. And that's what I learned really from the Maximum Lawyer group and things like key performance indicators, like I had never heard of that before and average case value and all that kind of thing. I did have a dear friend, my friend Steve Schlackman, who's now the chief innovation officer for a startup called Orange Genius. I asked him to help me improve my marketing because he had an MBA and he'd had a marketing firm before he went to law school. And he's very smart business person.
And I said, Steve, you know, can you help me figure out how I can get more clients?
And he said, sure. What kind of clients are you looking for? And I just didn't have an answer for that. I said, I don't know the kind that pay you for the work that you do.
[00:11:08] Speaker B: So they have a pulse and some money.
[00:11:10] Speaker A: They. Right, right. So he said, well, have you done a SWOT analysis? And I said, what's that, Steve? So swot. I always tell people who are starting their practices about SWOT analysis because it really helped me crystallize the direction I needed to go in as a firm. And what you do is you draw an x and Y axis, like, you know, a line going up and down and a line crossing it from left to right.
[00:11:37] Speaker B: So like basically like four boxes, if you will.
[00:11:39] Speaker A: Right, exactly. And then on the left side of the line, going from left to right, you write S and on the right side you write view. So strengths, weaknesses, and then on the up and down axis you write opportunities, threats.
So the upper left box is your strengths and opportunities area and the upper right box is the strengths, but threats area and then the lower left box is the weaknesses. I'm sorry, did I do it right?
[00:12:11] Speaker B: Yeah, weaknesses, opportunities.
[00:12:13] Speaker A: I think I screwed that up.
I wish I had a whiteboard I could show you, but you get my
[00:12:19] Speaker B: share the screen next time.
[00:12:20] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Oh, but I wouldn't know how to draw this on my. I don't have like an apple pencil or anything like that. So in any case, strengths, weaknesses, truth, threats. So he said, how good are you at the thing that you're trying to do? Which at that time I was trying to be a personal injury attorney.
So on a scale 1 to 10, I gave myself like a 4 because I'm smart, I'm hardworking, all organized. I'm very organized, I'm good with technology, but I'm also, you know, two year lawyer. So I, I was conscious of that. I, I was conscious of the fact I didn't have a war chest. You know, the PI firms, they need to have money to pay for transcripts and experts and medical records. And the world knows that we attorneys are kind of a gold mine for expenses. So they love charging us the maximum. Right.
So I gave myself a four in the strengths, weaknesses, area.
And then opportunities from a scale. On a scale 1 to 10, I gave it like a 2 because I think there are hardly any major injuries that happen, catastrophic injuries or wrongful deaths.
Since I'm a newcomer and I don't have a war chest, I'm probably not the right person for this kind of matter, which would be the ideal matter in that SWOT analysis. I turned out all my data was in this sort of weakness and threat area because the weaknesses, you know, if you measure those on a scale 1 to 10, no war chest, no team, no expert list of people I've worked with, that's kind of an eight.
And the threats I've got to compete with Morgan and Morgan 411 Pain, the local firms in my area that are preeminent in personal injury, like the Haggard law firm or Colson Hicks or there's a ton. Any of these, like, lot of threats. So that was like 8, 9, 10.
So all the data ended up in that weakness threat quadrant. And so I was really disappointed to see that this thing that I'd been pursuing because my first job was in that area was just not. Not really advisable for me. And so I was like, well, gee, now what do I do, Steve? And he says, well, what are your best clients like at? My partner at the time, Adam, his family was allowing us to use their office in the Upper east side of Miami, which is very close to that Wynwood art district during the late 2000s. And teens, that was a real hotbed for startups.
And they had like a co working space called the lab. There was a startup that hosted a Waffle Wednesday program where they'd have speakers. Speakers come in, Refresh Miami, which is a meetup group for people who are coders and startup type people would meet in Wynwood. So it was really interesting. I was getting all these young entrepreneurs calling me up for legal advice. And I had done something unusual for a lawyer, which is I made myself a page on Yelp.
And at that time, Yelp was just for restaurants, really. But I had the best reviews on Yelp.
And when Siri was invented, I don't know if you remember when Siri came out, it was like 20, 10, 11, 12, maybe they took the data from Yelp. So if you said, hey, Siri, find me a lawyer.
They would say, call, you know, Gersten Muir. That's my. That was my firm at the time.
I was connected through Yelp, and it was so cool. It was my party trick. I would say, hey, Siri, find me a lawyer. And they'd say, Gersten and Muir. It was really cool. So I tell Steve about this. These entrepreneurs were great for me because they're smart and they're organized. And I found it to be really easy to communicate with them because I can speak to an engineer and explain why I think what I think, and they're satisfied, which is something that I'm proud of, because engineers are very discerning types, you know. So in any case, we did the SWOT analysis for these small businesses and entrepreneurs. And in that area, I had started the business.
I knew all the things you had to do. You have to incorporate, you have to get a tax ID number, you have to get your permits, your licenses.
I had learned all this from doing it for myself. And he said this looks like where you need to be because the strengths and opportunities were stronger. Like my data was all in that quadrant and there weren't so many threats. Not a lot of lawyers were focused on that area of practice. So that's how I ended up as a business lawyer.
[00:17:08] Speaker B: Thank you for tuning into the show today.
I have taken things to the next level and I've started the Managing Partners Mastermind. We're a peer group of owners looking for connection, clarity and growth strategies. So if you're looking to grow your law firm and not do it alone, please consider joining the group.
Bots are limited, so I ask for anyone to reach out to me directly through LinkedIn and with the set of a one on one call to make sure it's a fit.
Now back to the show. So SWOT analysis is a great tool for sure to go through this process. Right. And this could be done. I mean you can use a SWOT analysis for a lot of different areas, not just choosing where you're best to focus your whole law firm, but you can break it down into other areas like I think, you know, like hiring or different practice areas within your law firm or whatever. Like, hey, what are we good at? Where's the opportunities at? And then what's the major threats? What, what could, what could derail this whole, this whole initiative? And this might just be goals or initiatives throughout your, your quarter or your month, dual SWOT analysis on those and say, what's the likelihood that this is a good goal to focus on? What's the, what's the data tell us?
[00:18:20] Speaker A: Exactly. And that's really a key lesson that I've learned becoming more of a managing partner and business person is that the data is essential. Like, it's good to be self aware. We all want to be conscious of the realities that we are facing so that we can always grow and improve. But the data, that's where you find that truth. You know, data doesn't lie.
Numbers don't lie. You gotta, you know, maybe you have a practice area that you love to do, but if you count the hours that it takes compared to the revenue it generates and you're just not doing it efficiently enough, or the clients don't want to pay what you're asking or you know, there could be whatever weakness you've got to be attentive to that reality.
[00:19:11] Speaker B: Yeah, I actually, real quick story. I had a, had a client that was a criminal defense client law firm up in the Midwest area and they just had a lot of like, you know, struggles and some downturns and, you know, their SEO and things just took a dive and kind of kind of damaged the business a little bit. Had a lot of drop in revenue. And they came to me to say, we need help, but we think we just need to kill out all this stuff and start over. And we just want to go maybe into business law. And so as I was talking with them and looking at stuff, I was like, well, okay, well, where does all your revenue come from?
Well, it's all criminal defense. What are you known for criminal defense? What's all your reviews say? You know, mostly about criminal defense cases and things that we've done. Okay, why do you want to go into business law?
Well, we just feel like we can't recover and so we're just gonna like change gears. And it's like, I don't think so. Like, that's a bad idea. And again, they've been doing this for years and years. They were just looking for an out and the shiny object. I think as entrepreneurs too, it's like, I'd rather go do this over there, but it might kill your business. And so I think stepping back to be like, is that really a good idea? And what are all the threats and issues that'll come out of doing that?
But taking time to do that would, would've been helpful for this person to do.
Because as entrepreneurs, we also kind of like, oh, look at this over there, look at this over there.
And it can distract and damage kind of what we've built already too, so thousand percent.
[00:20:44] Speaker A: And what I notice about entrepreneur types is that they tend to be very optimistic.
They have a kind of inner excitement and light that makes them very attractive, very interesting. They're passionate, they're, they're persuasive, but sometimes it's borderline delusional. And I mean, I'm, I consider myself to be like that because I suffer
[00:21:11] Speaker B: from this for sure.
[00:21:12] Speaker A: I was, I was definitely deluded to, to think that out of law school I could just, you know, start a firm and it'd be okay.
And it was not okay for a very long time. And I made a lot of mistakes and couldn't do simple things like get invoices out every month. That was one of my achievements is like getting invoices out every month without fail. Because I would, I have this strong belief in the fiduciary duty. You know, I'm a sixth generation lawyer.
[00:21:49] Speaker B: Oh, wow, that's excellent.
[00:21:50] Speaker A: And my mother was a judge and
[00:21:52] Speaker B: my father can't mess up.
[00:21:54] Speaker A: I know. I was so I'm like this, I'm a modern day knight in shining armor. I swore an oath to protect my clients and their interests have to come first. And it's like being a samurai, you know, you have to commit harakara if you don't dishonor your lord. Right. And so I would focus on the work and only the work. And then I would just run out of money. So one day I would wake up and like one example was I had a payroll of about $2,500 for, for a two week period, which is like very reasonable payroll.
[00:22:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I would like not wanting to look at mine right now, but yeah,
[00:22:35] Speaker A: now it's like 70 plus for us. But where I was looking at the payroll and I had to make $22,500, but I had $17 in the account and I was like, I have to make payroll by Thursday.
How am I going to do this? So I had to bang out a bunch of invoices, call up the clients, ask them to please send us payment promptly. It was just terrible.
[00:22:59] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think, you know, it's, that's kind of a superpower of entrepreneurs, right, Is that we are optimistic. We were ready to go and people follow us to some degree. Like they look now I believe them. But then there's the, the dark side of that, which is, you know, if it doesn't work out, which a lot of times it might not, we, we're still hopeful and optimistic even though shit's burning down around us.
[00:23:23] Speaker A: Right?
[00:23:23] Speaker B: So.
[00:23:24] Speaker A: And I, it is like a muscle. Like when I first started, I tell people this when, when they're feeling blue. I'm like, when I started my firm, I would cry out of stress and anxiety probably three times a week. And I would just curl up in a ball like on the sofa. I have no idea what I'm doing. I have no idea what I'm gonna do next.
And I would say, Jane, you can watch one episode of Sex and the city just 30 minutes and then you're gonna have to attack this problem. And I would just like force myself to sit there and grind the problem out until it was over. But the muscle gets stronger. So after a while I'd say it was about six months and I was only crying once a week or once a month or once a quarter.
And now nothing phases me. Like I am ice cold. It's just like things can burn to the ground and I'm like, how are we gonna fix it? What are we gonna do? Everything's cool.
[00:24:26] Speaker B: You get the marshmallows out. You're like, oh, that's awesome. Yeah, it does. You know, you don't always think back, like, how could I have gone faster or skipped or had a shortcut or whatever. But it.
[00:24:36] Speaker A: It.
[00:24:36] Speaker B: It takes the lessons and the failures to. To get to where you're at and to. To build up to where you are. You can't skip all that well. You can't read a book and be like, got it done. Perfect.
You know, because you won't respect it. You know, it's just. You have to have the tough moments, I think, to really learn. So I love it. I love your story. I love everything about it.
A lot of talking about, you know, a lot of things resonate, that's for sure.
[00:25:04] Speaker A: Yeah. And. And that's the thing. Like, a lot of people when they're starting a business, they.
They like to talk about the success. And like, ultimately, I'm glad to say I have reached a point where I'm feeling more successful.
But every benchmark, there's like, somebody I know says, new level, new devil. And, like, I had this goal. I want hit a million in revenue. And I. And now I've hit it, and I keep hitting it, but now I want to hit five.
[00:25:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:35] Speaker A: Or 10.
[00:25:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:37] Speaker A: And I know people who are doing it who are younger than I am, and I'm like, I gotta get there because I'm competitive.
[00:25:43] Speaker B: Well, it's. I do. I say the same thing all the time. Different. A different way of saying it, but you celebrate the win. Like, I heard this from someone the other day. It's like. Like a high school football coach basically said this to them, celebrate the win, but only today. And then it's back to it again. Right? So it's. And that's kind of how my mindset is now. Right? It's like. And friends or family around me is like, slow down. Stop. Like, you. You're good.
And they just don't get it.
[00:26:09] Speaker A: Why don't you. Why do you work so hard? You've already made it. No, you never make it.
Grow or die. Grow or die.
[00:26:16] Speaker B: It's the journey, Right? So, yeah, it's like I always say, like, you know, if you climbed a mountaintop, and then you look and you're like, crap, there's a taller mountain over there. And you just want to know what that's like. And so it's all through my, you know, entrepreneurship career. It's like mentors say, like, oh, Kevin, we're at a million. Don't worry, you'll be there soon. And I'm like, that's impossible. And then it's like, you know, hit a million. It's like, okay, well what about the next thing? And our goal is a hundred million. So as a goal doesn't mean we stop there and we're about, we're close to eight figures right now, so. But when we hit that, that'll be major.
But if you look at a hundred million, that's still 10% of the way there.
[00:26:54] Speaker A: 100 million for a law firm means probably a hundred million dollar lawyers, right?
[00:27:05] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. That's hard to kind of wrap your
[00:27:07] Speaker A: head around and like, boy, I have a, I have a wonderful team who I adore and a lot of them are my friends. Like, my office manager is my dear friend. Rugby teammate. Introduced me to husband.
[00:27:21] Speaker B: Awesome.
[00:27:23] Speaker A: My latest hire is my trial teammate from law school.
And we've been friends 20 plus years.
And I, I try to hire people I want to work with who I like, who like, share my values and my sort of attitude, mindset, to use your word. Like, we tend to be athletes, musicians, people who are interested in practicing a discipline. Like, understand that you don't start at, you know, a plus level. You, you have to start at the bottom and, and grind and work and, and get there.
[00:27:58] Speaker B: Culture's everything. So having a good team and people, they're the, that's what's going to help you get to the next level and the next level. Right. So, you know, whatever the goals are. But it's just, yeah, you're always looking for that, that next win and that next. That nest. Mountaintop or how'd you, how'd you put it? It was. You had used a different analogy, but
[00:28:16] Speaker A: new level, new devil, new level, new level.
[00:28:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I like that. That's awesome. Yeah. And some people just don't get it. Right. Our friends or family might not understand where our head's at, but celebrate the win, short time and then go on to the next.
[00:28:31] Speaker A: Keep going. Yeah.
[00:28:31] Speaker B: Yeah. I love it. Well, Jane, I appreciate you coming to share just a cool story kind of your, your path to where you're at today. And it was the hard path. I think that's, you know, what makes you special and where you're at today. And now nothing phases you.
[00:28:47] Speaker A: Right.
[00:28:47] Speaker B: But that wouldn't be where you're at if you didn't go through some of this experience.
[00:28:51] Speaker A: Absolutely. The things that I learned along the way, like becoming a leader in an organization was one of the 10 things. Right.
And I became a leader in multiple organizations which from doing that, I Learned bookkeeping, accounting, taxes. I mean, I'm not a tax attorney and I always just claim that because that's a whole different thing. But I can read 9 90s. And so it ended up getting me appointed as a receiver. And so I've been a receiver now like half a dozen times in five counties.
And it's great because now I'm just, I love getting into a business and seeing how it works and what are the, what are the pain points? And it's so much fun to explore. Explain that to the court where you've got a he said, she said situation, like a husband and wife divorce. Let's say the court needs to know, is this person really stealing from the business or what's going on? And you get to say, no, it's the bookkeeper. It was Colonel Mustard in the, in the dining room.
[00:29:55] Speaker B: I want to say Clue. My favorite movie end game. That's awesome. Yeah. Joining, Joining the leadership in a leadership role at a. On a board is great because one, most boards and charities or whatever it is are looking for people. And so they just throw you in there so they don't go, what's your credentials? It's like, oh, you're. You raised your hand, we're gonna. And then you're like. And you're forced to kind of take a take, you know, take charge. So I think that's a great, A great part of the 10 steps is, is that one right there for sure.
[00:30:27] Speaker A: Definitely. And it, and it kind of gets you business because I think people can see how you do one thing is how you do everything.
So if you do a good job at your nonprofit leadership role, like you run a tight board meeting, you don't waste people's time. You implement improvements like put together a new website or implement a member management software or just, you know, throw great parties, even that, that stay on budget.
Those kinds of things make people want to hire you.
And I think that's a real recipe
[00:31:05] Speaker B: for success, a hundred percent. That was, that's been a major thing for me doing that over the years. So great, great tips, advice, lots of things to unpack there. Everyone, if you listen to this episode, listen again. We will be sharing this out, of course, and we'll be breaking down some of the hot takes and clips here shared by Gene today. So.
And then of course, Max Law Maximum Lawyer.
Great group at checkout. I know we talked about that a few times on the show. I'm looking forward to being at Max Lawcon this in 2026. I think it's in Atlanta, Right?
[00:31:37] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah.
[00:31:38] Speaker B: So shout out. I should be there speaking, taught at Tyson, talking about having me speak at it, so.
Looking forward to that. And if you're emceeing, don't mess up my introduction.
[00:31:49] Speaker A: I won't, I won't. I'll make you look good, Kevin. Don't you worry.
[00:31:52] Speaker B: All right, Cool. All right. Well, you stay on with me for a second. This the way this system works. It downloads to our individual hard drives, and then it uploads it in case we have any interruption in WI fi, things like that. So, Jane, you stick on with me. Everyone, thank you so much again for tuning in and listening. Hopefully you find it helpful, and we will see you on the next episode.
Budgen.
[00:32:16] Speaker A: All right. Thanks for having me.
