Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:18] Speaker B: Most firms survive. The best ones scale.
Welcome to the Managing Partners podcast, where law firm leaders learn to think, think bigger.
I'm Kevin. Daisy.
Let's jump in. What's up out there, everyone? Welcome to another episode of the Managing Partners podcast. I have Tom Bosworth here out of Philly. Tom, I think we. I think we met in San Diego last year at Law de Gras, and just a lot of people were like, man, meet Tom. Tom, you know, is like a damn rock star up in there. So I was obviously excited to meet him. And he has a podcast. I was on his podcast recently, which is just getting ready to drop, I believe. And when I have Tom on the podcast, I really talk about, you know, what he's done differently. He's been very successful in a very short amount of time, from what I can see. This is my optics anyway. And for me, you know, I'm all about building businesses, and this show is all about building a law firm. So just want to hear Tom's story and what he's up to. Hopefully some us can learn from what he's done and. And where he's going. And so, yeah, we're just here to riff a little bit and have some fun. So, Tom, welcome. Welcome to the show.
[00:01:21] Speaker A: Thanks, man. Yeah, that was great to meet you in San Diego. Just thinking about that. I was like the only east coast lawyer. I felt like on the speaker panel, it was. Nick Rowley was a part of it, and then Ibiari Sac. It was all like, California folks, and I was. I'm like the lone east coaster. But it was a.
It was a great time and it was great to meet you, too.
[00:01:41] Speaker B: Well, I was there to support the East Coast. I felt the same way. I was there. I had people be like, you're from where? Like Virginia Beach? Like, where the hell's that on the East Coast? You came all the way out here.
[00:01:54] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Well, everybody was singing your praises, too, so I'm glad to be here with you and I know your story a little bit, so.
[00:02:01] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I appreciate it. Yeah, I was just on your podcast and appreciate you having me on. But, yeah, I mean, I've already signed up for a lot of girl. I got a booth, and actually we're going to do a live podcast, recording booth. We're also going to do like a Man on the street style, where we're going around and just asking lawyers questions and stuff like that. So if you're going to be there, definitely get on the list to do some live podcasting.
[00:02:22] Speaker A: Heck, yeah.
[00:02:22] Speaker B: So for sure. I got Bob already gonna be on the list to do it with me, so. So Tom, just tell me your story. I mean, again, from what I know, I think you started your firm in like 2022.
[00:02:33] Speaker A: Yeah, late 2022.
[00:02:34] Speaker B: Late 2022. You're based out of Philly. You do PI primarily. Right. Just give us a little, you know, background on your story, how you come about starting your own firm and what you specialize in.
[00:02:46] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:02:52] Speaker B: Thank you for tuning in to the show today.
I have taken things to the next level and I've started the managing Partners Mastermind. We're a peer group of owners looking for connection, clarity and growth strategies. So if you're looking to grow your law firm and not do it alone, please consider joining the group.
Spots are limited, so I ask for anyone to reach out to me directly through LinkedIn and we can set up a one on one call to make sure it's a fit.
Now back to the show.
[00:03:23] Speaker A: Sure. Well, I, geez, I don't know how far back I should go. I mean, my, my mom wasn't really set out to be a lawyer. My mom was a waitress and my dad was a police officer in a town of 3,000 people in the middle of rural western Massachusetts somewhere. Some people would call it the flyover area. I guess I don't like that term because it's kind of, it's kind of pretentious. But. And I, I love where I'm from, but anyways, no, I, my grandmother died when I was 18 from medical negligence. And it kind of set me on a path ultimately where I ended up at Temple Law and be in Philadelphia, Temple Beasley School of law. Graduated 2016. I did a federal clerkship right out the gate, a one year clerkship with a federal judge, which was really great and got to see the inner workings of the judiciary and watch trials and help, you know, the judge make decisions. And then I worked five years for a large catastrophic plaintiff's injury law firm. And then November 2022, two months after I got the what was the largest medical malpractice jury verdict in Pennsylvania in September 2022. And I was 33 at that time. So, you know, just wish I could say I saw that come in and I knew that the jury was going to do what they did. I, I'm not that smart though. But I, I was, you know, two months after that, I, I is when I started my own, my own firm. And then that's been going, really just exploded, I guess is one way to put it in terms of how great, you know, how lucky and just prosperous and just really how lucky I am to be in this position and have so many different people that trust me with their cases. And that's kind of word of mouth. And did I mention I went viral on social media throughout. At some point in this saga, I started doing TikTok video. I even knew how to use my phone with TikTok, and someone was like, you should do a TikTok. I started doing informational TikToks, and now I have like 300 something thousand followers. And so it's kind of crazy. I don't know if that answers your question, but I got a lot of irons in the fire, as my grand. As my grandfather would say. But it's. It's pretty cool.
[00:05:29] Speaker B: No, no, it's. Again, I, I didn't even really know who you were last year. And then, you know, obviously I went and followed you and we connected and I, I kind of kept checking out your stuff and so, man, this guy's freaking. And then I was on your website earlier. I was like, man, he started in 2022. And then you're like, the end of 2022. I'm like, holy smokes. So, yeah, just, you know, some of the things you've done. If I think a lot of lawyers, I would say majority of lawyers are like, well, I can't be successful on TikTok, probably can't figure out Instagram. I probably can't do this and that. And they usually hire someone like us or me to, to do SEO and to drive leads for them, and they don't feel like they can themselves be successful at these other channels. And, and we see it time and time again. It's definitely possible. You just got to figure out be yourself. And you're certainly yourself, right, which is what's unique about you and probably why you've been successful at it.
[00:06:17] Speaker A: So, yeah, I think that, you know, for better or worse, one of the biggest reasons people like me or hate me is that I, I am myself and I, I don't. You know, obviously I'm mindful of the ethical implications of speaking about legal issues and on, you know, on social media, and some of that implicates, you know, ethics rules, and some of it doesn't. You know, some of it could be characterized at advertise as advertising, some of it's not. But regardless, I very much believe in being a holistic human being and a person. And I, I really firmly believe that lawyers should not hide who they are, but really show who they are and everyone's different, you know. So I don't mean to say like you, every lawyer needs to get on social media and everyone's different. It's a personal choice. But I think one of the problems in this profession, at least in my opinion, is that we've, you know, it's no secret that there's a lot of workaholics, there's a lot of stress, there's a lot of anxiety, there's a lot of substance abuse, there's a lot of, there's a lot of, you know, issues in the legal field. I mean I'm at. This is not a earth shattering thing I'm saying to any lawyer who's listening. But, you know, yeah, I think a lot of that is, you know, this, this emphasis that we just be these one dimensional robots. Like you're a lawyer and that's your identity and that's who you are. I really firmly push back against that. And it doesn't mean you don't value what you do. And I, I hope people know I take my craft very seriously and I pride myself on performing at the highest possible level in the courtroom and litigating. So it's not, it's not like that. But, but yeah, I think, I think that's a big part of it.
[00:07:47] Speaker B: Well, you know, from other folks I know luckily through this podcast and through clients and experience, you know, like Jen Gore, Bob Simon, these are people that, they're themselves and they, they talk about even personal things.
Bob drinks bourbon on his show and he, he has fun and he doesn't really give a crap.
And you know, Jen came out was like talking about her divorce and all kinds. It was just everything's out there. And so you're not just this lawyer in a suit reading off a script, social media crap. Like, and so they're the ones that see successful are the ones that are like, you know what? This is me, I don't really give a crap. Who cares? And they're the ones that win and they're successful. And yeah, the people that don't like them aren't going to like them. And that's fine. Find out sooner, you know, soon as you can.
You have to have some haters.
[00:08:34] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. I think, yeah, I think those people are great. And I, I talk about for myself, you know, my surprise. I've been sober since 2011. Like, I don't drink, I don't do any. And I don't, by the way, I don't, I'm not a teetotaler. I'm not anti, anti drinking or whatever. I don't like, you know, look down on that. But that's part of my story and I, I know other people that in the field and that's another thing that I like to talk about when it, when it's applicable because it's just part of who I am. Not something I'm ashamed of and not something I run from. But yeah, I think we're at a kind of a turning point in the profession where there is a lot more of, you know, the Bob Simons, the Jen Gore, and I think of Nick Rowley as well, who's a, who's a good friend, who is, I know, cares deeply about the human element of, of the practice of law and being mindful and being yourself. So I think we're heading in a different direction.
[00:09:30] Speaker B: No, without a doubt. And yeah, if you cared about drinking, you wouldn't have been at Lo GR for sure.
[00:09:34] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. I'm like the guy just over there with a seltzer, just chopping it up and I'm like, oh, I'm like, I'm hitting the hay at like 10 o' clock if you guys are, you know, you guys keep going, but I'm gone to sleep.
[00:09:46] Speaker B: We might have stayed up a little later than that, but those secrets will come out on another episode. Secrets of Law de Gr. We'll have to cover that. But no, I, I totally agree with you. It's, it's cool to see a lot of the change and, and just from my perception of lawyers, let's say 10 years ago, before I really niched kind of into working with lawyers, it's totally different than it is now. I have so many lawyers that are friends that show up on camera with T shirts on that, you know, in baseball caps and the, they're working from home. It's just a lot has changed with, with that, not across the board. There's still a lot of the traditional, you know, lawyers out there that, you know, you expect to see, but there's been a lot of change. There's been a lot of automation. There's, you know, you got zoom and not having to be in an office at all. You know, there's just a lot of changes that have happened out there and I think allow some of these folks to be where they want to be, go where they want to go, still be effective at their job. And I just, I think that's a good thing.
[00:10:38] Speaker A: So, so do I. I think that, you know, here I go and, and I'm going To probably say something that's going to ruffle some feathers, but I love it. But, but you know, there's a generational tension. I mean there's, there's this generational tension between the, you know, the folks who have been here for a long time and they, they may not like the advent of technology or the fact that it's a, it's a, that it's not going anywhere, that lawyers are using it. I mean, there was that sort of tension when television came on the scene in the 80s or 90s or whatever with lawyers. And we saw that same sort of tension. I don't think it's much different now. We're just talking about a different medium. We're talking about TikTok and we're talking about Instagram. We're not talking about TV. But you know, as a law firm owner, I try always to. I don't want to end up that. Right. There's going to be something when I'm, God willing, when I'm 70 or 75 or 65 or even 50. Yeah, we're right. Yeah. Like darn kids in these, you know, scally wags or whatever. Like, I don't want to be that. I want to like welcome that. I want to be aware of it. And of course I'm not going to be as savvy as the younger folks with it at that time. But I think, I think introspection, self reflection generally are very, very important qualities. And I don't proclaim to be an expert or perfect at all, but I think that if you, it's dangerous to avoid those things, to avoid introspection and self reflection, both personally but also professionally because you end up just kind of resentful and angry and you might just be. But, but as opposed to understanding it and working with it and adapting. And I think that we're seeing a lot of that with the legal profession.
[00:12:14] Speaker B: No, I totally agree with you. And it's just like when the Internet came around and then when lawyers got, were able to use email, like, you know, just like the tv like, and they can advertise.
And so yeah, we're going to continue to go through those moments where you can either get on board and say, okay, let's do it, or you're going to start to be left behind. And I unfortunately talked to lots of lawyers that are behind on, you know, a lot of things because just the playing field is changing where they used to get leads or from certain sources that are going away because of AI or from AI Search or whatever. So like me, for me as an agency, I remember when Covid hit and we're like, me and my partner sat down for a minute, we're like, what are we going to do? And within like 20 minutes, we're like, we're going to go on offense, we're going to spend more, we're going to market more, and we're going to tell our clients we are not going anywhere. Then we're going to double down. And so same thing with AI just appeared. Well, we could say, shit, it's going to take our jobs and all my people have to go somewhere else or we leverage it and lean into it and that's what we're doing. But Google might not ever be around in a while, in a short amount of time, where are people going to find clients? Right. And so we have to figure out that and move on and not care about Google. Right. If that, if that ends up being the case.
[00:13:23] Speaker A: And I think Chat GPT is probably currently eclipsing Google. I mean, not to say that Google's not going to make money and not be a massive company that probably always will be. But, but I think in terms of like usage, particularly with younger people, if you look at those numbers, I would bet you, you know, I don't know the statistics, but I, I think most people go, if they have a question, they go to Chat GPT in the way that they did go to, that they went to Google a couple years ago.
[00:13:50] Speaker B: Yeah. And so lawyers need to understand this because an agency owners, if any of my competitors are listening, like, like we now track how often you're showing up in ChatGPT search. How do you show up in ChatGPT search? Perplexity Gemini. We're now, we had to shift from just Google to all that stuff really fast. And how do you rank in it? How does Tom come up? Why would ChatGPT even recommend him as a lawyer to hire in Philadelphia? We got to, we gotta get that done. We gotta figure that out. So, and if your lawyer's sitting there going, maybe I'll start doing some SEO. Like, well, you're don't even, I mean, that's still a thing, but it's not the only thing. And you need to be working on LinkedIn, other channels, TikTok, Instagram. Um, so yeah, it's just so much rapid change that if you're already behind on just the basic things that you should have done five years ago, 10 years ago, then you're, you're definitely gonna feel some pain here soon. If you're not already.
[00:14:41] Speaker A: Yeah. One of the, I don't know. One of the things I think often gets kind of mixed up though is this misunderstanding usually from lawyers who maybe they're not as savvy with the technology or it's not part of what they do. And it's this, you know, it's this idea that lawyers who are on social media, lawyers who are prevalent on TikTok or Instagram or whatever, that they're like, they're like a, quote, social media lawyer. Right. Or an influencer. And I think, I, I don't, I don't even know what that means. I think it's just that some lawyers are popular on social media and some are not for whatever reason. But, you know, I think about people like Bob Simon, who's a bona fide trial lawyer, a real lawyer, someone like Nick Rowley, one of the best trialers in the country. I mean, there are real lawyers who actually exercise the craft of being an attorney at the highest possible level, who are also on social media and forward facing on social media. So I like to push back against that narrative too, because it's not just like purely marketing. It's not just the lawyers who are, whatever you want to call it, billboard lawyers or, and nothing against them. Some of them are my closest friends and, and I have nothing against that style of practice or whatever business model, however you want to call it. My only point is that lawyers should not assume that other lawyers who are big on social media are not also really good at being a lawyer. And I think we need to resist that temptation. And everyone needs to kind of take a deep breath, sit down and have a conversation about it, because it's not, I mean, we're 2025 now, July 2025, in December 2025. In five months we'll be in a much different place technologically. And we're, we're not going backwards, we're going forward.
[00:16:23] Speaker B: It's not going anywhere. And there'll be another platform.
[00:16:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:25] Speaker B: Something else to get on early, adopt and, and people are going to take advantage of it and some won't. And so, yeah, you get to sit there and be like, well, they're just, they're just an influencer. They're just dance. I hate when some people say, I'm not going to dance on TikTok. Well, yeah, Tom's not dancing on TikTok either.
[00:16:41] Speaker A: Right.
[00:16:41] Speaker B: You don't have to dance.
[00:16:42] Speaker A: Well, another thing I hear too is like, well, there's a right way to, there's a right way to do it, there's a right way to do it. And, and that's, and then you go, well, what's that? And usually the response is, well, to be boring in a suit, impersonal looking like every other lawyer has for the last 50 years. And if that were the right way to do it, then all these new things wouldn't be so successful. People wouldn't want to see an attorney in a T shirt talking like a normal person. But they do want that. People wouldn't want to see an attorney showing their personal life or exposing certain aspects of their personality, but they do want that, right? So, you know, again, be mindful of the rules of professional conduct in ethics. But nothing in the rules of professional conduct says don't have a personality to completely dilute any sense of humanity from your entire self and be a, be a robot. That's not, yeah, like, that's not in there. So, you know, it's, again, it's, it's just sort of taboo.
But I also feel a sense that I'm like, hey, I'm sorry if this sounds bad, but I kind of like hear guys, you know, lawyers complain about, I go, cool, keep, go keep burying your head in the sand. I'm going to be over here, like adapting in real time to the reality you can go live in the past. I'll be here continuing to get new clients, continuing to help people, continuing to grow my market share.
[00:18:00] Speaker B: I love it. I love your, you know, some of your attitude and some of the posts you've done. Cause I, I, I see them and like one, you were talking about a, A, a case that you, you won and you had the other lawyer coming at you saying they're going to sue you because you taught the case has already been closed. And the comments and like your pushback and you just kind of stand your ground on, on what you put out there and because I know, you know, that it's something you're able to put out there, you know, otherwise you wouldn't do it. So.
[00:18:27] Speaker A: Right.
[00:18:28] Speaker B: And so, yeah, I just like to see like you're, you're standing your ground in the comments and, and you, you know, all the posts that you've done. So you just gotta be yourself, stand up for yourself, be unique. And no one should tell you how it's done because every day someone's figuring out some other way to do it and they're being successful and that works for them. And then everybody's like, well, why are they successful? Well, they figured some out that works, you know, and they're being themselves.
[00:18:51] Speaker A: So, yeah, yeah, I think with that, with that one post, you know, a lot of things, or I think people may not understand is that, you know, if I post about a trial victory like that one, where I won a trial, you know, behind that is 3, 4, 5 years of me representing someone who was horribly injured through the negligence of somebody else and has been going through this process. And then finally we get to the courtroom, which is a public place by definition. And constitutionally, it's a public place where public dispute is. Is aired out, and then there's a public verdict. Verdict literally means in Latin to speak the truth. And you have that public accounting. And then, you know, social media is also a public forum to air out public things. And I mean, the U.S. supreme Court's even referred to social media as the new kind of the public marketplace, right? Where there used to be a soapbox that someone would stand on in the middle of the town square, like, literally, the U.S. supreme Court has referred to social media as being like that now. So when I get complaints or threats from lawyers who have lost against me in that public forum in the courtroom, and particularly lawyers like in that case who made no settlement offer ever to try to settle the case, which, by the way, you know, any lawyers listening, Most cases end up in settlement. And most of the time you settle, it's confidential and you're, you know, it's an exchange of money for an agreement to not continue the lawsuit and not, you know, a lot of times not talk about. That's available to defendants, that's available to these public. That's available to these insurance companies. They could do that. And let's just call. Call it what it is. I mean, that lawyer said, put up, Tom. I mean, he was. He was regarded as the best defense lawyer in Pennsylvania for medical malpractice, and he got beat. And they were in a really tough case, but he should have offered money at a very injured child. And I thought we had a reasonable argument and the jury agreed with us. So again, then he threatens me because I'm posting about the victory in the public court. So I find that stuff to be really important to call out. It's not about me making money, and it's not about the financial aspect. I truly believe in the importance of that from a free speech standpoint, from an accountability standpoint, from a lot of standpoints, and it's your client.
[00:21:07] Speaker B: Your client standpoint, and tell them. Tell them that story.
[00:21:10] Speaker A: And my clients want that story told. So it's a matter of principle to me. And I respect other lawyers who go, I'm not going there, man. You're like, putting your neck out there. And you know what? They're not wrong. But I find it. Maybe it's from my personal experience with my grandmother dying, maybe it's from my. I don't know. But I have a very strong feeling about a lot of this stuff. It's not just about, like, making.
[00:21:32] Speaker B: Making money, and that's what makes you different. So. So if you're listening, you're trying to figure out social media or anything, it doesn't matter what makes you different, what's. Who's. Who are you. And be yourself. And you'd be surprised what people gravitate towards. And again, they're either like you or they're not gonna like you. And that's. That's life right there. And the more exposure you get, the more following you get, the more haters you're gonna get. But you're also. You're getting in front of people that want to hear you, want to follow you. I want to hire you. Right? So you just got to go all in. So I. I love watching you, Tom. It's been awesome. Where, you know, where are you at at this point in your. In your short business career as far as settlements one and things like that? Do you know, I look at your website and I was like, oh, man. Okay. Wow, that's. So this is sort of.
[00:22:19] Speaker A: You know what's funny about it? The website is like, it's totally in shamble. And that's not anyone's fault but my own.
[00:22:24] Speaker B: But I need to hire me or my team, and we'll fix that up live on the podcast.
[00:22:29] Speaker A: Yeah, we settled a case for, you know, 27 million not long ago, and we settled another one for 25 million. We just got a $5.6 million verdict. Another case. Settled another case Just north of a million in a case. Yeah, it's just been really, really great. And one after the other, that half of these aren't on the website because I'm too. I'm too frickin busy. I'm literally too. That's an excuse. I mean, someone could build the website up, but I'm like, I'm literally running around like a chicken with my head cut off. And I'm like, you know, you know, he canceled this.
[00:23:00] Speaker B: He cancels recording with me once. Couldn't show up, so had to. Had to get back on his schedule.
[00:23:04] Speaker A: Sorry, I'm just. I'm always trying to juggle things. And also having a 5 and a 3 year old as well, which is, you know, obviously my number, My number one job.
[00:23:13] Speaker B: But yeah, yeah, my. Let's see, my kids are 11 and 14.
[00:23:19] Speaker A: You're in the teenage realm, which I have. I haven't entered.
[00:23:22] Speaker B: Yeah, you don't want to then We. We've been sending them to camps, like, as much as we can all summer. So. Yeah, yeah, I got one in a camp. One's at home, which is kind of cool. We get to spend time with, you know, one on one versus having both of them around. So that's been pretty cool. So. But yeah, Tom, I love to see your success, man, and, you know, love what you got going on. Hopefully some folks that are tuning in can. Can learn from what you're doing or if they have questions, maybe they connect with you.
We got tons of attorneys that listen to the show that reach out to me all the time. So if you got questions, you know, connect with Tom, reach out to him, follow him, see what he's doing. But at the same time, he's just a freaking awesome lawyer and he's getting amazing wins for his clients and still putting himself out there and being who he wants to be. I think that's. That's a fresh thing to see.
[00:24:07] Speaker A: Thanks, Kev. Yeah, I love talking to other lawyers just off the cuff, too. It's not like a, you know, it doesn't have to be like a formalistic thing, but I just love, you know, spitting, spitballing ideas and. Yeah.
[00:24:20] Speaker B: So, I mean, as the best thing I've ever done is get in a group or a mastermind and talk to people that have done exactly what you're trying to do or something similar, or they've, you know, it's the best way to. To learn other than listen to podcasts like this.
[00:24:34] Speaker A: And so this podcast, just to be clear, that's it.
[00:24:37] Speaker B: The only podcast that you need to listen to. No, I mean, this podcast for me is. I say this all the time. One, I get to talk with you one on one. That's the most important thing and get to meet you and know you. Number two, I get content less important to me. Number three, well, maybe you know, someone, you can refer us or whatever, some work. But number four, I get to learn right firsthand, ask questions that I can use for myself and apply to what I'm doing. So though it's just a win, win, win, win four times, right? Boom. So if you don't have a podcast, people get one. Tom's got one, and it's the city of Brotherly Law. City of brotherly Law. I was on it. I was the only non lawyer on that dang show. Probably. But we had a good episode.
[00:25:16] Speaker A: Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
[00:25:17] Speaker B: Well, Tom, what's the best way. What's your Instagram? What's the best way for people to follow you?
[00:25:21] Speaker A: So Instagram? I'm lawyer Tom Bosworth. TikTok. I am Tommy the lawyer, and my actual government name is Tom Bosworth. And my law firm's Bosworth d'. Angelo. So you can email me, you can send me a message on social media. Tomosworthdangelo.com is my email. And yeah, I'm always talking to people.
[00:25:42] Speaker B: Well, I appreciate you talking to me today and sharing some of your story and successes and can't wait to watch you. Hopefully see you at some shows coming up. And I have to make my way up to Philly at some point. I've been there in a while.
[00:25:53] Speaker A: Yeah. Come on, come on. Down or up?
[00:25:55] Speaker B: Up. One up.
[00:25:57] Speaker A: One up. Yeah.
[00:25:58] Speaker B: All right. Well, Tom, stay on with me for just a sec. These files take a second to upload sometimes. And everyone, thank you for tuning in as always.
[00:26:04] Speaker A: Appreciate you.
[00:26:05] Speaker B: And we'll see you on the next episode.
