Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Where we're at in the industry. I think it's where we're at in the world. And I think that if you are not prepared to adapt, you're not going to make it. I mean, the cost of doing business now, again, not unique to my firm or to this industry, but the cost of doing business continues to go up is just crazy. I mean, it's.
[00:00:33] Speaker B: Most firms survive. The best ones scale.
Welcome to the Managing Partners podcast, where law firm leaders learn to think bigger. I'm Kevin. Daisy. Let's jump in. Hey. Hey. What's going on my podcast family?
Welcome to another episode. Today I have someone that I've been trying to nail down for a little while.
We have some mutual friends and we've, we've got to talk a little bit backstage while we're having some technical difficulties. And just a really nice guy. Great guy. And Seth Bader, welcome to the show.
[00:01:09] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks for having me, Kevin. I'm excited to be here. As you mentioned, we've been trying to connect for some time now, so I'm happy to finally connect with you here.
[00:01:18] Speaker B: Yeah. So, yeah, I feel like I've heard a lot more about you than I've gotten to talk to you. That's a good thing. So excited to have Seth on Bader Law, based out of Atlanta, Georgia. I like my guests to kind of tell their story, introduce themselves, but, you know, started in 2008, built up quite the firm and the brand. You know, folks that reach out to us for marketing, if they're in that general area, we'll, we'll mention you all and say, what are they doing? How are they doing it?
And so, you know, again, I hear a lot of good things, but, you know, yeah, just tell us a little bit about yourself, your story, and then we'll, you know, get into some business focused questions for all the attorneys that are out there that listen to the show, trying to, you know, improve their businesses and their, their situation.
[00:02:04] Speaker A: Sure. Seth Bader. And as you mentioned, I'm a founder of Bader Law here in Atlanta, Georgia. We specialized in personal injury and workers compensation.
And like I said, been in practice since 2008. The firm has grown, it has evolved, it's gone through multiple kind of, I'll call it iterations.
Learned a lot of lessons, you know, along the way. Some, some more painful than others. Actually, most of the lessons usually come from certain amount of pain. But, but I've definitely learned a lot along the journey. I wouldn't trade it. I might trade some of the decisions I've Made, but, but even those really represent a lot of lessons. And so, yeah, I'm excited to be here with you and, you know, to share.
[00:02:44] Speaker B: Yeah, it's interesting how, you know the seasons of business. Right. And I've, I've had plenty of myself. You need those, those painful moments. You know, we, as owners, we always try to do the research and put our best foot forward and make the right call, but just to also know that you're not always going to succeed. It's not always going to be a winning strategy. You're going to fail 100%. And the faster you get comfortable with that, the better and make decisions quicker and say, you know what, some of these are going to work, some are going to fail, some will be very bad, some will learn from. Hopefully we learn from all of them. But laying out kind of your firm and your position, I think I counted like maybe 13 attorneys that you have there.
Where are you all at as far as like, just staff and size that for folks listening to the show.
[00:03:33] Speaker A: Well, we're kind of evolving. Right. So the staff and the size of the firm doesn't necessarily reflect like what the business would have been. I mean, I think that historically we had about 150 employees, but over the years we've found some interesting ways to be more efficient and to. So, so the size, I think with technology and with global support, I think it's kind of changed how our business looks. It certainly, I'm sure it's changed how many businesses inside and outside of our industry actually look on paper. So. But yeah, historically, until about 20, 24, 23, 24, we had about 150 employees.
[00:04:17] Speaker B: Wow. Yeah. So good point. You know, it's, you know, some agencies outsource everything overseas. Some you're using all AI or you got all US employee, you know, in one office. Like, there's three different. So we do all three. Like, we do all three. So obviously we leverage AI to be more efficient and to take things off the plate. So people, they need to focus on what they're good at. We have great staff in South America that are like family to us.
And then we have, and then we have a lot of US employees and we continue to grow all in all areas of that. So that's a great response. I appreciate that.
[00:04:57] Speaker A: Yeah, no worries. I mean, it's, I think it's, I think it is where we're at in the industry. I think it's where we're at in the world.
And I think that if you are not prepared to adapt, you're you're not going to make it. I mean, the cost of, you know, the cost of doing business. Now, again, not unique to my firm or to this industry, but the cost of doing business continues to go up. Cost of living continues to go up. The, you're in the marketing space, you know, I don't know what you're seeing, but the, certainly the cost of acquisition is just crazy. I mean, it's just crazy. You got to find solutions. I don't think that employees understand or necessarily need to understand. But you know, as you, as you make these kinds of changes without clarity as to the why behind it, I think that it looks like something that it's not. It might look like there's something wrong when in fact you're really just trying to stay ahead of the curve and try to continue to build and set yourself up for long term success. But in the, in the short term, it's, it gets a little rocky and it's, you know, it's not only rocky for me as an owner, but at times I think it can be rocky and uncomfortable for the team.
[00:06:04] Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's a, that's a good, good point. And we, yeah, we have to stay ahead. We have to stay efficient for us. I know again, we just had, we just had a company retreat that we have every year in the summertime. And you know, we deliver those messages often. Like, you know, we're continuing to use AI, but we're not replacing the stat that we have now. It might hinder the new opening positions that we may have once had, but we're finding the talented people, using AI when we can to be more efficient. And we're using, you know, our overseas help where it makes sense as well. And you have to kind of keep that message open to your staff. If you just do it in a vacuum, they're like, yeah, what are they doing? They're getting rid of our people. They're going to try to replace us. So you kind of have to stay on top of that, why we're doing it and how it's going to benefit you and your team.
[00:06:58] Speaker A: I mean, I had coffee this morning with one of our top paralegals and we were talking about AI and we were talking about people. And one of the points that I wanted to make to her was that, and she agrees with this, finding really, really talented people is really hard. And that's again, not unique to me, not unique to the legal.
It's really hard to find people not only that are talented, but also that are aligned with what you're trying to build. And I don't think that there's ever going to be a time where those individuals have anything to worry about. I think that if anything, those individuals will thrive even more in this new world. And some will thrive by using the tools to continue to do what they normally do. And I think some will find that they will, let's say, the scope of their work and their responsibilities will change because of how they're working.
But again, those individuals will always be of tremendous value and we'll never have a problem because again, it's, there's a, there's a shortage on really, really talented people and, and at least at scale, right? I mean, if you're a small boutique, you know, it's easy to find, you know, five, ten people that are easy, but it's, it's easier to find five to 10 people. And you can also influence them a lot more as a, as an owner, as a leader. But then once you're scaling, it's really hard not only to find those people and scale, but also to, to have the influence you would normally have on people that actually are talented but might need more training, support, development.
[00:08:27] Speaker B: Yeah, good. People that fit your culture, your core values are hard to find. People that just want a job, they're not a fit here.
I don't think they're a fit for you either. So. Yeah, that's a good point. I think clearly what you have worked on and what we work on here, culture, our people, our values, we, we have a hard, an easier time finding those people because there's usually they get more attracted to your business. They see what you're doing and they, they want to work there. So it makes it easier. But it's still. Some of those people are very, very hard to find. And I agree. I think those people are going to have an easier time finding positions if they, if they're, if they're in the market. Our goal is not to lose them. We try to keep them as long as we can. So.
But yeah, I hear a lot of law firms bitching and complaining about can't find attorneys, associate attorneys, once with one or two or three years experience. But the firms that, I know that, that dominate they market, they, they really focus on the business side of their firms, you know, tend to have way less of an issue there.
[00:09:27] Speaker A: I think to run this business well, you also have to have a really robust legal practice. And I think sometimes firm owners, they can go kind of like too extreme. And I think if you're, and I think there was a time in this business where I don't, I don't think that the, there was a, the right level of focus on the practice itself. And I think that that actually hurts the business. Right. I mean, I think it hurts the brand because of the client experience. It hurts your revenue and profitability because that is your product. Right. If you're not selling a good product, if you're not getting good results, then it's hard to have a good business. So they go together. But I do think if you're going to sc. Scale it, I mean, if you want to be a small boutique, I think you can probably afford to just keep it as a small little mom and pop shop that might do really high quality legal work. But you're not trying to scale, you're not trying to, you know, you don't have a real marketing budget. You don't have, you really are a traditional practice. But I think if you're going to scale, if you're going to grow, you have to have a business mindset and a business approach.
[00:10:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
Yeah. You're still a very unique business being lawyers and what you do. Right. It'd be like if I could build a marketing company that is a facade that markets itself well, that positions itself well. But if we can't deliver results, you know, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter.
It'll fall apart. Even though I believe, and this is in some cases, sometimes the relationship sides, the experience piece on the communication can carry you pretty far, even if the results are lackluster in some cases. But you should, you gotta get both, you know, your goal should be to, to, to nail both. And I think that's what a lot of businesses struggle with, primarily on the legal side. I mean, I, I got tons of law firm clients and lots of guests on the show.
They're usually pretty good at the legal side and they suck at the other stuff. You know, they're bad at communicating, they don't follow up, they don't have any good intake strategies.
[00:11:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:26] Speaker B: So you have to definitely have both of those.
[00:11:29] Speaker A: Look, it's a, it's a very hard, it's a hard business and anybody who tells you otherwise, I think is, is lying to you. And you know, I, I, you know, I'm friends with and colleagues with do masterminds with some of the top firms in the country and everybody to a large extent is dealing with a lot of the same challenges. I guess the bigger you are, the bigger, the bigger, the the problem. But I think you have, you know, you also have more resources, which also helps. But it is, It's. It's a, It's a. It's a tough business. And I think one of the things that really makes it hard is that it. I wouldn't say it's a moving target, but it is, you know, market forces and things that are happening. Our fees don't go up, right? Like, you're still getting 25% on workers comp. You're still getting 33% on. On a personal injury, and the average fees don't necessarily go up. And yet the cost of doing business goes up dramatically. So you could be doing a lot of the same things you were doing before, but it could really impact your profitability for no other reason. The cost of marketing is three times what it was five years ago. So back then, you got a thousand cases that cost you less than a million dollars. Just about today, that same same thousand cases cost you $3 million or more. You know, you're. You're constantly having to adapt and evolve, and, you know, it's. It's tricky. This is a tricky thing.
[00:12:48] Speaker B: Well, yeah, it's not like the insurance companies are just paying out bigger, bigger settlements. Right? Like, so you're. To your point, you're getting a percentage of whatever they settle at or going to trial for. So.
[00:13:01] Speaker A: Well, and then, you know, you. And you deal with, you know, legislation like tor reform, and that adds another wrinkle. And then AI adds another wrinkle. Like, there's just, again, it's not unique to my business or this industry. There's just, again, as any business owner, whether you're in marketing or PI, or own a restaurant or whatever it may be, things just change really, really fast. And what worked yesterday probably won't work today. And what works. What's working today probably won't work tomorrow. So you're just. We're kind of, you know, I think the key is just have the right.
[00:13:34] Speaker B: If.
[00:13:34] Speaker A: I think if you have the right people and the right foundation, then it makes it a lot easier, you know, to make those changes.
[00:13:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I think, you know, everyone's always preaching, go sit on the beach and take a month or two off or whatever. That's like the ultimate business goal and dream and whatever. But I feel like. And now more than ever, it's like, there's so much change. I know we're changing so much all the time. So just to stay on, on top of what's happening, obviously in my marketing space, things are changing rapidly. But to your point, that's for any business.
So you know, it's hard to have a set it and forget it business that you just sit back and relax on, you know, at this point.
[00:14:14] Speaker A: Yeah, well, no, I mean I certainly, I agree with that. I mean, I think, but I, I, I guess what feels a little different is that the pace of change is, just feels very accelerated right now. I mean it really, I mean there was a, again, maybe it's just because the business is bigger. So I'm dealing with issues that I wouldn't have confronted when I was a smaller business. But I mean it just, it doesn't even feel like the same business or the same industry that I was in five years ago, three years ago, even two years ago. Like, it's just, things just move really, really fast.
[00:14:48] Speaker B: Yeah, I, I, I agree with you. I think when we bring people on here, it's like if you don't like change constantly, this is not the place for you. We're constantly changing stuff and you know, you can get a little overwhelming sometimes and it can be hard on, on some of the folks depending on what positions they're in. I took my head of SEO and now he's head of automation. Like we're just shifting up so much stuff and trying to stay on top of what's working at the same time. You know, got your data, your day to day business that has to get done. So what are you seeing now you're in Atlanta. Do you, do you, you service the whole state? Are you more focused?
[00:15:25] Speaker A: I mean, definitely our focus is metro Atlanta. We do marketing, digital marketing throughout the state and we do represent clients throughout the state. But I don't know the percentage, but certainly the majority of our clients, the vast majority are in metro Atlanta, you know.
[00:15:42] Speaker B: Well, let's just say now, right now, like what do you see as being the most successful channel? You know, what do you feel on top? Like adjacent to that? Like what has been kind of the, one of the best things you feel like you've done over time that's, that's paid off.
[00:15:58] Speaker A: Well, right, right now the best channel for me is probably, it's probably Google, both, both paid and organic.
I think that it's interesting. Again, the marketing has changed. When I really sort of broke onto the scene and built the business, it was through Spanish building a Spanish brand.
We were, we really were very quick to build that. And I think that over the years I've made some changes. Some of them I think were good decisions, some of them were not. And I think that's really impacted what we had in the Spanish market. It's still a big part of the business, but it's, it's. We don't quite have that same like market penetration. But I also think part of that is that there is, is a lot more competition. When I started there felt like there was one big player. Now there feels like it's like, I don't know, five to 10 and. Yeah, so I think, and I say five to 10 bigger players. But then there's, I think a lot of folks are marketing for, you know, for that, that demographic and that community.
It's an amazing community to support and to represent.
But what's working now is digital marketing.
But I think that you can never, I think if, if you can build the brand and you have the patience and the, the patience then, and you're, you're able to, to, to pull it off, then I think that, you know that's always going to be your best marketing. But it is also, it is also can be the most expensive and the hardest to, to build over. Right. So I think. Well, it's definitely, it's definitely hard to measure. You're certainly not going to get the precision you will with digital, but it's, I think that whether you're building a digital brand or you're building a traditional brand, both require a certain ramp up time and a certain, I don't know, like you gotta pay, I don't know. I call it like the, what did I call it for a long time, like the, the, the price, the price of admission or the price to, you know, there's a cost you gotta pay and an investment you have to make that most people aren't able to or willing to make. And it's really, really uncomfortable. And so I think the difference is with digital you can see the return and you can track the return and you can optimize. If you have the right partners, you can optimize. So if something's working, you can pour more gas on it and if it's not, you can pull it back. You can, it's sort of like searching for oil and you can kind of dig around and try to find it. And if you find a well that has oil, you just get as much of that oil as you can before somebody else does. Whereas like the traditional, you're just there and you just kind of cross your fingers and, and wait. I mean there's, there are things you can do to be proactive. You can get out into the community, which I think is one way to help support the traditional stuff that also helps with digital. But I think you just don't have that ability to, to know what is and isn't working. And so, you know, we were, we were in the, in the general market from about 2021 to 2024 in a big way with radio. I, I think radio itself can be a great channel to market if you have a good strategy, if you have good content. I don't think that we did. And so I think that frankly was, if you ask me, like, is radio a good channel? For me it wasn't, but I think it can be. But you gotta have more than just repetition and frequency. You have to have really good content, you have to have a good strategy. And even there you have to find ways to optimize. And I think with traditional, the easy thing to do is just kind of set it and forget it and just cross your fingers. And so that's why I'm a fan of building a brand. But you have to have a strategy and a brand and good content and you have to have really strong, talented people to help you with it unless you are able to do it yourself. And I think it's. So those are my thoughts.
[00:19:58] Speaker B: Yeah, so, yeah, I agree as a marketer too. That doesn't do radio. I don't do billboards, I don't do those traditional areas. For the most part, I support them all. Every channel can work.
So I don't bash anything. You find something that works, it could be Seth walking around a neighborhood with flyers. If it got him car accident cases, go ahead. So it's, you know, just, you never know what's going to work in a certain market for you. But you know, for me it's always be working on your brand, all that traditional stuff, neighbor, your community. Like, I think every business should be putting a certain amount of energy into those things because it takes time and it's not something that's overnight. So if you neglect that and then 10 years from now you're like, well, I'm ready to start a brand. Like, you know, just so much time has been wasted, then yes, you can leverage your digital channels to, to tweak and bring in the cases you need now. So just continue to build that and organic. Organic and brand all the time. Never stop. Then, you know, once you have some budget, you can up your advertising and you can tweak that and use that. So. But I think a lot of small firms, they go, oh, I just want to just Google Ads and that's it. And that's that's probably all they can afford. And they might not even be competitive to be able to do that. So I think it's really just analyzing, like, where are you in the business? What can you afford? And having someone that can help guide you towards what you should do with what you have. And yeah, you have to, you have to pay and wait in some cases, you know, you're not just going to go, hey, I want to be Seth Bader tomorrow. And I just opened my firm. You know, it's just not going to. You can't, it's impossible, no matter how much money you had, because the time's not been put in. I tell you, I had a sales guy literally asked me. I was like, yeah, I got a podcast. He's like, oh, who's that with, like, Seth Bader? He's like, oh, I just had a prospects, like asking me like, what is this guy doing? And he said it was your stuff. And people try to replicate, they try to see what others are doing, which makes sense. But you can't put in the time and effort overnight. It's just not going to happen.
You know, you as a brand have a trail of, you know, decades, online resources, content.
You just can't replicate that overnight. It's not possible. Well, just like bad press or bad reviews, like, they stick with you, but that, the good stuff you've done sticks with you as well. So it's something that you gotta continue to build on.
[00:22:17] Speaker A: It all sticks with you, the good and the bad. You know, I think that, you know, I think that's the challenge. It takes time to build something great. It takes time to fix something that's broken. And, you know, you know, you only get that one reputation. And I think it's really hard if, if, if the reputation gets damaged.
Whether it's internally, externally, like, it's, you know, it's really, really hard. So you gotta protect that reputation. Like, looking back, you know, I think about there, There was an, There was a time where we were a small sort of boutique firm where I say boutique, at one point There were like 10 people, you know, and then it was like 15. It still felt small and kind of family like. And then it got to 20 and then it got to 30. I think after about 30, we, we lost that. And I think that the, the, the quality of service sort of became degraded. And I think one thing that's really, really hard is, is, is to maintain that same level of quality. And I think that, you know, when you're growing fast, it's really, really hard.
But I think that if you don't, and, And I can. I can say with some. Some humility that I don't think we got it right. And I think that, you know, my advice to other owners that are growing and scaling is, you know, protect that brand, protect the reputation, and like, at all cost. You know, I think at the time I was afraid to, like, hold people accountable because, you know, there's like, so many people, and it's like you need them, but if you don't, very, very quickly, your, Your. Your business and your brand, and I'm not talking about like, your logo, I'm not talking about your. I'm not talking about your marketing. I'm talking about your reputation with your clients and with your team can change very, very quickly. So it's, It's. It's. I told you about learning some very painful lessons like this. That's one of them.
[00:24:09] Speaker B: If you produce bad work where your company strays that direction, you lose your A players because they're not. They're not want to be part of offering a service to someone that's not at their level of. They expect.
[00:24:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, that's. Losing eight players is really hard. And like you said, I mean, they want to work in an environment with other eight players that want greatness. Again, it's much harder at scale. That's, you know, that's. I'll say that. But also, not only your team, but again, your employees, your clients. Right. I mean, one client has a bad experience to clients. If you don't step in and sort of nip it in the bud and set standards and hold people accountable to them, then it just spirals very, very quickly. And you just gotta be really, really careful.
[00:24:56] Speaker B: And there's no wrong answer. I mean, everyone that I've talked to or listen on that listens to this show. I know we have a lot of solos. We have some boutique firms, we have some. Some large firms. Each have their own idea of what they want to do, and staying small is. That's totally fine. Produce a great result, great product experience, and you can win and stay small. If you want to grow and scale, great. That's what this podcast is for.
But it comes with this challenges, and it's going to, you know, so there's pros and cons to each. Each way you want to go.
[00:25:28] Speaker A: There's definitely challenges.
I think every business owner challenges. And it's just, you know, it just depends on what, what challenges you want to face and what goals you want to achieve. Um, So I. In some ways, the bigger the goals, probably the bigger the challenges. But again, if you stay small and, you know, then you face the question of, can you generate business? Do you have enough money to market yourself? And then those can feel and are very big challenges for a small business owner. So.
[00:25:56] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think too, you know, for us, the decision was we want great people, we want to support them.
You know, how. How can I have employees and they have goals and ambition and I never grow? That means they never go up in position. That means they don't get new opportunities. How are they going to lead teams if we don't grow and add people?
Their pay raises and increases can only be. But so much. They don't really have a career path that's really just.
This is. This is your job. And so that kind of hit us hard, you know, back when we made that decision many years ago was now we have a whole talent department and career paths and, you know, different levels at, at every stage that you're. You're at. So, so that's what motivates us. It's like, I can't hire an A player and then go, okay, this is. I don't really know where you go from here. Like, they're not going to come into your business if they have no clue where you're going to. They're going to go from there. That's what's motivated us to kind of say, all right, well, we got to continue to grow. What. At what level? I don't know, but we're just, we're just growing and, and you got to maintain that quality. I think that's very hard.
[00:26:59] Speaker A: We.
[00:27:00] Speaker B: I've lost. I've lost some good clients that were friends of mine because we messed something up. That's the worst. But best thing you do is use that to, to fix it immediately and step in, so. Well, Seth, I appreciate you.
Sorry for the technical issues on the beginning, but I'm, I'm glad we were able to. To get some recording in and. And you share because you have so much to. To kind of talk about and share and. Yeah, you know, you're in the thick of it right now with just like I am and like a lot of businesses listening.
[00:27:31] Speaker A: So, yeah, I'm glad I was able to be with you and, you know, your, your community and. Yeah, I always, always love exchanging ideas, sharing ideas. If anybody, you know, wants to collaborate or discuss things, I always, I'm always looking to, you know, grow my network. And I think, I think as a business owner certainly As a law firm owner, it can be very, very lonely. It can be very lonely.
It's very, very hard. And I think that if, I think finding others that are in the same position makes it a lot easier because you realize that you're not, you're not alone. You're going through a lot of the same challenges, but you can also see the opportunities based on what they've experienced, what they've accomplished. So, like I said, if anybody wants to chat or connect, you know, I'd love to do that. And yeah, I've really enjoyed connecting with you here and I'm glad we made it through. There was oddly, had no technical difficulties for the last 35 minutes, but the first 15 before we got on were rough.
[00:28:29] Speaker B: We were going to reschedule everyone, so, but Seth's like, wait a minute, it sounds good now, so let's, let's just roll.
And that's how we do things here. You know, we just roll. There's no, there's no, you know, scripts or questions that I have written down. Honestly, it's a straight up conversation and that's what I, you know, love most about the podcast. So, um, but yeah, to your point, I appreciate you offering people to connect with you. Um, if anybody wants to connect with Seth, let me know. I can, I can arrange that. Bader, Is it Bay Law.com? it is Baylor Law.com to check out him at his firm, see what he's done and accomplished. And then, you know, you mentioned masterminds and groups. I started the managing partners mastermind off of this podcast and actually that, this today as you're recording, I think we had like 40, 40 some people coming, but my mastermind is free at the moment, but we do a whole hour and a half share once a month and law firm owners can meet each other and we talk about challenges. But regardless of mine, there's so many groups out there that you can get in touch with. If you're a law firm owner just hanging out by yourself and you don't know everyone to talk to, find a mastermind. It could be a local group, it could be a law firm group. There's a ton of options out there.
[00:29:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:41] Speaker B: So.
[00:29:41] Speaker A: Well, I, I, I don't know if that's an invitation to join you today, but if it is, maybe I'll join you.
[00:29:46] Speaker B: Three o' clock today that you want.
[00:29:49] Speaker A: All right, well, look, it was a pleasure. Thanks so much. I actually would love to join. I don't know that I can, but I'd love to, to find out more about that. So talk soon.
[00:29:57] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Well, yeah, anyone that wants to know more about it, it's the managing partners, mastermind. And yeah, we've been having some. Some great speakers, talks, discussions. But outside of that, everyone, thank you so much for tuning in. Listen to me and Seth, and we'll see you on the next episode. Seth, you hang on with me.
We'll let this recording upload. And thanks so much for my.
My veteran listeners. And we'll see you soon. On the next episode.
[00:30:33] Speaker A: Sam.
