Why Law Firms Win When They Treat Every Client Like Gold

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:18] Speaker B: Most firms survive. The best ones scale. Welcome to the managing partners podcast, where law firm leaders learn to think bigger. I'm Kevin. Daisy. Let's jump in. What's up, everyone? Thank you for tuning in as always. I got my good friend Gary Sauner on the show. If you don't know Gary, you've been hiding under a rock. ROI 360 plus. Gary, what's up, man? Welcome to the show. [00:00:45] Speaker A: Kevin. It is so awesome to see your face. We get to chat every now and then and social media every day, but thank you for having me back on. It's. It's an honor. [00:00:56] Speaker B: I think you've been on the third time on the show, right? I think so. Well, second with me. You were on my business partner years ago. [00:01:03] Speaker A: Yes, Correct, correct. [00:01:06] Speaker B: Technically three. [00:01:07] Speaker A: I'll take it because you guys do amazing things out there for the world, for your communities, and for all the law firms that we both get to touch. And I know that you are probably as grateful as I am. [00:01:20] Speaker B: 100% man. I appreciate that too. Yeah, I mean, Gary, no one's more passionate about what he does on Gary. And so love seeing it, you know, Love seeing you on social. Pretty much every morning I'll get my coffee and I'll open up Facebook or something. And there's Gary telling me, have a great. [00:01:37] Speaker A: Have a great day today. Great. [00:01:41] Speaker B: Every morning. [00:01:42] Speaker A: Every only give it. So why not make it great? [00:01:45] Speaker B: Absolutely. You wake up, that should be a good day. [00:01:48] Speaker A: You know, it's funny, I. I had a weird dream and you look to me like the kind of guy that would want to drive around in a golf cart with orange seats. [00:02:00] Speaker B: No. Why would you think that? Okay, the Jigsaw nerds. I got a golf cart. You know, you want to cruise the neighborhood in style. You know, riding a bike's always. Not always the most fun. So I got a golf cart. [00:02:15] Speaker A: Did you put a cool stereo system in it? [00:02:17] Speaker B: Oh, dude, this thing is loaded. It's got a full stereo system, lights, show system, cruise control. In a golf cart. [00:02:24] Speaker A: Wow. [00:02:25] Speaker B: What? [00:02:25] Speaker A: Wow? [00:02:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:28] Speaker A: Well, one day I'm going to make the big time. 2 and I'll be able to drive around in a golf cart. [00:02:32] Speaker B: Well, you need to stop. Buying thousand dollar shirts would be a good start. [00:02:37] Speaker A: You want to see this one? [00:02:38] Speaker B: Yeah, let's see it. Man, that thing's awesome. Where do you get these shirts? [00:02:41] Speaker A: Robert, Graham. [00:02:42] Speaker B: Robert, Graham. I remember you telling me the brand before. I couldn't remember the. [00:02:46] Speaker A: You know, I think we probably talked about this, but when I went to my first Conference my better half. Aleta said to me, how are you going to stand out? How are you going to meet people? I knew one person going there, and I said, I'm going to sit at the bar and drink seltzer water and buy everybody else tequila. She's like, you're a fucking idiot. And she literally took me to the store and I dressed in slacks, sport coat, white or blue shirt every day of my career. I was glad when the ties went away and she takes me into Robert Graham. And I'm like, I am not dressing up like a clown. I refuse. Once in your life, just listen. I was like, okay, I'm going to listen. And I bought nine of the clown shirts. She told me, wear one to breakfast, change at lunch, and then change for dinner. Kevin, if I tell you in the first 10 minutes, my went from being down, I look like an absolute idiot, to 20 compliments, head up and like, holy shit. [00:03:42] Speaker B: Yeah, that's awesome. [00:03:43] Speaker A: I got known as the loud shirt radio guy. And that's what just got me to be able to have conversations with people. [00:03:53] Speaker B: Getting in the room. [00:03:54] Speaker A: Getting in the room and you know, like you takes doing great work and more importantly, giving a shit about the people that you get to partner with. Because it is a privilege. It really is a privilege to represent. The firms that we represent a hundred. [00:04:10] Speaker B: Percent love it every day, and they do amazing work for their clients and care deeply, you know, about their clients outcome and their wellbeing. And so it's just cool to see and have relationships with so many attorneys that, you know, I guess the general public might not view as, you know, people that have respect and honor for their clients and things like that. So. But I will say, yeah, it's good to see so many folks out there that are just trying to help people and run a good business and take care of people. So it's refreshing, for sure. And it's good meeting people like you in the marketplace and out there in the industry doing what you're doing. So there's a lot of charlatans out there too. [00:04:48] Speaker A: So, look, we both face this on a daily basis. AI is changing the world. Except for one thing. AI can't make the relationship that you and I have or that you have and I have with the partners that we have. The human connection cannot be replaced. And as, as a father, we could both say this. Our kids don't have the exact skills that we have where we could walk up to anybody, put our hand out and say, hi, I'm Gary. It's a pleasure to meet you, Kev. And just. It's mind blowing that this thing rules the frickin world. [00:05:31] Speaker B: Yeah, it's crazy. It's, you know, I talked to some groups recently and even to, you know, attorneys. Listening, right. Things that you, you can't replace, things that you need to do to stand out. But when you're looking at younger people, like who's going to have positions and jobs and, and who won't, the ones that can create relationships can talk to people that people like, they're the ones that are going to stick around, not the skilled ones because they'll be replaced. If you're just skilled, but you can't have relationship or emotional intelligence, then you're replaceable. Thank you for tuning into the show today. I have taken things to the next level and I've started the Managing Partners Mastermind. We're a peer group of owners looking for connection, clarity and growth strategies. So. So if you're looking to grow your law firm and not do it alone, please consider joining the group. Bots are limited so I ask for anyone to reach out to me directly through LinkedIn and we can set up a one on one call to make sure it's a fit. Now back to the show. [00:06:39] Speaker A: It's. I was watching on CNBC yesterday. They were talking about robotics and AI and that's coming, sure. Yeah, but there are so many people for the next 10, 12, 15 years where tradesmen are going to make such a difference and really stand out in our society. But AI, AI is taking over a lot of things. It can't, it cannot, cannot replace the human touch, the human feeling. You could tell when somebody's using AI in their emails, their social media and look, I've, I've done it. I try and change it up a bit but man, it's so damn easy. [00:07:20] Speaker B: It is, yeah. We're all leveraging AI. I think it's be dumb not to see how it's going to help you or make you more efficient. Lawyers are using it, law firms are using it. I called a law firm the other day. It's a client of mine or potential client of mine, sorry, person answered the phone. Very nice. Got me to the person I needed to get to. They're a prospect called in the next day for something and got AI 100% AI and answer that you had to talk through and you know, like you knew it was AI for sure. It still got me to where I wanted to go but you know, did I feel as good about it? Could I have a laugh or shoot the shit with the person on the phone? No, not really. It's not. It's not a real person. So I think there's a, a point to where it's too much at this moment. It will get better. But I think for the law firms out there, too, it's like, where are you using it? And what's. What's. Where you're like, I know, I'm not gonna, I'm not going to go that far. Jason Hennessy recently was like, he said, I don't. I would not have a AI answering service at this moment. Hire real people that know what, they have empathy and that can talk to people. [00:08:23] Speaker A: So we are in the legal marketing, yet we understand how law firms work better than 99% of the people out there. When somebody actually makes a call to a law firm, that is the hardest phone call they're making in their life. Because other than the few things that are happy to hire a lawyer for, like buying a piece of real estate or maybe if you sell your business, everything else sucks. [00:08:55] Speaker B: Yeah, you do not want to call a lawyer for most things. [00:08:58] Speaker A: And if you don't feel good from the moment the phone is answered, you're going to have a tough time acquiring that person who went out of their way to pick up the phone and call your son. Talking about interesting things on television. And I don't remember some of the words, but they're adding new terms and words to the dictionary because they're what the young people are saying today. The host on television was really disappointed with the addition of some of these words. And I'm sure this will make you laugh. What word from the 90s, do you remember when you greeted somebody, what would you say? [00:09:45] Speaker B: What's up? [00:09:46] Speaker A: I don't know what's up? [00:09:48] Speaker B: What's up? Like the. From the Scream movies. What was that? [00:09:52] Speaker A: From Scary Movie, but that became a phrase that was popular for about a year, year and a half. Yet today, because of the phones again and AI, they're actually adding some of these ridiculous words to a dictionary. [00:10:13] Speaker B: That's crazy. [00:10:13] Speaker A: So, yeah, I got a couple of good laughs from that the other day. [00:10:17] Speaker B: Well, you know, back to, you know, acquiring a client. Right. Well, you're. You're acquiring someone that needs the help. [00:10:24] Speaker A: Right. [00:10:25] Speaker B: So I think, you know, a lot of these lawyers are like, I'm the best, we're the best, we're the best. But if you can't align, if you don't align with the customer finding you, they're going to hire someone else. So it doesn't really matter if you're the best. How much do they pay? Gary TV US SEO Marketing, PPC brand How many years have they spent building their brand? How much have you paid to get that, that one phone call to where you're going to screw it up with cutting corners, right? [00:10:49] Speaker A: It's every business, every potential client partner prospect matters. And I had six or seven conversations this week with firms where we discuss referral business that comes in. And when we speak to our partners or our prospects, everybody talks about the big truck cases, the commercial cases, the million dollar, the seven figure, eight figure cases. I said, okay, we all want the firms we work with to get those. We don't really want people getting hurt, but it's going to happen. But I said, have you ever really dove deep into your referrals of big cases? Some yes, some no. But here's the interesting thing. If you treat the 1020 client exactly the same as the seven or eight figure client, you're going to get more referrals from the 1020 year after year after year than the person who went through the catastrophic stuff. Even if you handled them both like gold. And a couple of these firms actually track it. And they said it is spot on. The better we do with our low level clients in terms of fee and insurance, the better we do with referrals. No different in our space. We have partners that generate a lot of revenue and we have partners that generate a smaller amount of revenue, but they are equally as important to the businesses that we run. And oh, by the way, that small partner probably knows a large potential partner. If we make our partnerships with the law firms, we get to work with business first, get it done right, have a personal relationship where you actually give a shit about the people who that you're doing business with. They are going to refer us no different than their clients are referring them. And it is a cycle and a circle that will continue to keep giving if we all do what's right. And it's not hard. I have another brand that I love now and it's interesting, you know, with the shirts that you brought up earlier in Chicago, I took it out and wore it to the conference rather than putting on the clown outfit. And all it said was be a good person. Every person that I walked by and made eye contact with and like you, I make eye contact with everybody. Everybody said that is a spectacular message. And as parents, we raise our children to be the best at whatever they want to be. But we hope and work that we set a great example for them to Be good people. [00:13:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Way more important. [00:13:56] Speaker A: Got a lot of guilt, a lot of guilt of not being around as much the house due to working like a dog. And you know, my schedule. I'm up at 3:30 in the morning and in bed by 9. But there's a lot of things that I missed that I'm guilty of. But the love, compassion and teaching never left. Go make mistakes. There's only a couple that are really, really bad and if you don't make those, you'll learn and be better. [00:14:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I see all the posts with your, with your kids and most of you did a good job. So yeah, I think that's, you know, we only hope to be that they're good people. We don't care if they're millionaires. That's it. [00:14:40] Speaker A: Look, we all work as hard as we can and we choose to work to make the livings that we make. But I see a lot of multimillionaires that are miserable. I also see a lot of people that are making minimum wage that are very happy and I'm sure there's both on each side. Money just makes it easier to acquire things and to travel, but it doesn't bring happiness. And I learn, I, I can only speak for me. I learned late in life to put me first. And when I put me first, you know what I did for everyone else, I was a much better human being. [00:15:15] Speaker B: Yeah. 100% man, love that shirt. Where'd you wear that shirt at a recent conference or. [00:15:19] Speaker A: I went to the big truck and auto show in Chicago. [00:15:24] Speaker B: Nice. [00:15:24] Speaker A: And I wasn't going and I got FOMO and I booked everything on Thursday and I called my good friend Lana and I said, hey, can I just bring you a check? I don't like to pay with credit card for any of these things because I won't pay a service fee. I'm cheap when it comes to that. There's no 3% I'm paying. [00:15:45] Speaker B: That's funny, I've done that before. I did that for NTL this year. I think I was coming back from. You were one of the reasons I was coming back from a ski trip with my family. And you're like, I remember, why the hell are you not at ntl? And you know, I was, it was a Sunday, I was traveling from Denver and Monday I flew out to Miami, bought a ticket there on site. [00:16:07] Speaker A: Well, guess what? Book it now. It's already set. I've already booked my hotel at the Lowe's, I've already bought my sponsorship. I'm sponsoring the golden gavels again. [00:16:17] Speaker B: Nice. [00:16:17] Speaker A: And I got some real hope that we're finally going to take home our first trophy. [00:16:23] Speaker B: I think you can do it. I love it, man. [00:16:26] Speaker A: I think what we're, we're submitting. We were sitting down the other day and came up with what we're, what we're going to submit. And it would be really, really fun and a cool honor to watch one of our partners win a golden gavel. You know, we just play a part in it. [00:16:42] Speaker B: No, I hope to see you up there. I hope you see. I will be there for sure. I know I booked lol, grand maxcon Law. The, the business of law in Scottsdale. [00:16:53] Speaker A: Are you going to pimcon? [00:16:54] Speaker B: Not going to pimcon at the moment. [00:16:56] Speaker A: Go to pimcon. [00:16:57] Speaker B: I know you always tell me that I gotta, gotta go there. My buddy Chris, direct competitor, runs the whole thing. So I guess we'll see if it makes sense to go. [00:17:05] Speaker A: Well, I'm gonna give you, I'm gonna give you two reasons as to why this year's pimcon is, is a must see. All right? Number one, obviously it's, it's only a second conference, but nobody on the stage paid to be on the stage. Now here's, here's what I am so excited for. You know who Nikki Glaser is. You saw her roast of Tom Brady. [00:17:31] Speaker B: I didn't actually. [00:17:32] Speaker A: Okay, you gotta watch that on Netflix. [00:17:34] Speaker B: All right. [00:17:35] Speaker A: But Chris has Nikki Glaser coming out as the entertainment this year and she's going to be roasting the speakers. God only knows what information is going to be out there and what's going to be said. [00:17:48] Speaker B: That's awesome. [00:17:49] Speaker A: But that is worth the price of admission, let alone that he really ran. His first conference last year was absolutely spectacular. [00:17:58] Speaker B: Oh, dude, he did such a job. [00:17:59] Speaker A: And like you, Chris gives a shit about getting things right. He's a competitor, he's a perfectionist, and he hit the ball out of the park last year, so I cannot wait to see what this year is like. Yeah, I bought the VIP ticket, I went all in. [00:18:14] Speaker B: Well, I'll pull it up and look at it right after we're done recording this and maybe you'll see me there. Give me FOMO over here. [00:18:20] Speaker A: It's the worst. [00:18:21] Speaker B: I'm cool with Chris and he does a great job. And they. Yeah, I've heard so much about that conference last year. [00:18:26] Speaker A: So, you know, when we look at your side on the digital side of legal marketing business, there's a lot of great agencies to partner with out There. And I could say, you know, I say this to everybody because I'm friendly with everybody. When I make a referral, I give four people out because I don't know who's got exclusivity, who does this. And back to what we were talking about earlier. The connection, the human connection matters. People buy from who they trust. And like, we only get one shot to make a first impression. Don't drink at conferences. [00:19:05] Speaker B: That's a message. [00:19:06] Speaker A: No, that wasn't to you. That was the world listening. [00:19:09] Speaker B: The world. [00:19:10] Speaker A: One first impression. And it might happen at 11 o' clock at night at a bar. And if you're drunk, it's not going to be a good 100%. Not going to be a good one. [00:19:20] Speaker B: Yeah, but get to the conferences. If you're in a law firm, you're not going to these conferences to meet other lawyers, partners. I know. Jen Gore told me this, why you go to some of these conferences. As a owner of a law firm, you know, that's doing very well. And she said, I learned more. And then I get to see my vendors and my partners in person and that relationship matters. And guess who gets priority or gets taken care of. She wants to spend time with her vendors and partners and get to see them in person. So for law firms that don't. I know I have a lot of clients that I invite to these things all the time. They're like, yeah, I don't really go to those conferences. Go to these conferences. But think you're running a law firm and you got it all figured out. You know, it's crazy. Such. There's so many good, so much good content, things to learn from constantly. [00:20:03] Speaker A: Let's just talk about us. You know, I believe our real first connection was through the bourbon exchange several years ago. [00:20:14] Speaker B: Yeah, we ready for that this year? [00:20:16] Speaker A: Listen, it's an online Ponzi thing on bourbon. [00:20:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:19] Speaker A: Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. [00:20:21] Speaker B: We got to start teasing it, Gary. We got to start teasing it. [00:20:23] Speaker A: Well, I. I'm going on bourbon approved in November in New York. All right, so that first year when you and I connected on it, Bob Simon played a. He was involved, so he was right under me. Well, Bob had. I got 80 something bottles that year because anybody Bob touched about bourbon wanted to send something. [00:20:44] Speaker B: Yeah, I was gonna say that that's your. That was your strategy right there for sure. [00:20:49] Speaker A: And. And unfortunately, last year, Bob did not participate. But I'm hoping that in 2025 we will get Mr. Simon and Morrow to participate. And they do. Their podcast is amazing. It's very different. And these are all unique, and I'm just so grateful to be on with you and to get to be on all of these, to just share who we are as people. I think that we're all respected in what we do, but this gives the opportunity to make a connection before a conference. Another reason to go to a conference. Somebody's going to watch this podcast today and say, I want to meet Kevin. I want to meet Gary. And that's important. And it might be random. You know, we are out there soliciting them. We are fortunate and lucky when we are referred to a law firm, but most of the time, we are the one doing the outreach. And if you don't get a cell phone number, good luck getting a lawyer on the phone in their office. Any business owner. Today. [00:21:56] Speaker B: Here's my email. My assistant will get back to you. [00:21:58] Speaker A: Yeah, right now, I'm curious. Do you have an in office phone system? [00:22:04] Speaker B: Very basic one, yes. Mainline Ron to cell phones. [00:22:08] Speaker A: Okay. So we, we use office at hand, which gives everybody a. A specific number for their cell phone. But inevitably people give out their cell phone numbers here at roi and it's. [00:22:19] Speaker B: You get every time. [00:22:21] Speaker A: That's it. Everybody's got to have your cell phone. [00:22:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, to back up real quick, like with this podcast. Why, why? It's awesome. Every once in a while I'll go to a conference. The coolest thing is when someone walks up and goes, I listen to your podcast and I don't know who they are. And, and, and that could happen across any. Just Gary being on social media, posting, everybody, hey, Gary, I know you because I see you on my Facebook, I see your stories on Instagram. Having a good. Have a good day. You know, just. That's exciting when someone walks up and says, I don't know you, but I'd like to meet you. [00:22:57] Speaker A: That stuff, you know, I agree with you. And I can only speak for me. I take every call that comes in, and I want to speak to every sole proprietor out there who's busting their ass to make it happen. And inevitably, John Morgan comes up and everybody aspires to be like Morgan and Morgan. And what's really interesting about John and Dan, who, Who I'm friendly with, they'll give you their playbook. They'll tell you exactly what needs to happen. But you have to remember one thing. They've been doing it for 40 years. They didn't come out of the gate all over the place. It's not easy to build a brand. It takes a Huge investment. And more important, where I am seeing some differences in the conversations. I'm great. Legal work matters so much more today than it ever did. And you've got more law firms marketing. We had this conversation with a couple of law firms the other day, and I'm going to make numbers up just to make it easy. If you were acquiring 100 cases a month with an average fee of $10,000, let's just keep it simple and you start a new marketing channel. I don't care if it's radio, if it's tv, if it's billboards, if it's digital, paperclip, whatever it is. You make this investment and you only go up 10 cases. Your cost per acquisition went up, not down. Now granted, it's going to take time to acquire a lot, but what if you're getting a better type of clientele, you're actually doing better legal work for them and your average fee tripled. Would you rather have 110 at 30,000 or 135 at 20,000? I didn't do the math real quick here. [00:24:55] Speaker B: 110. [00:24:56] Speaker A: 11030 is going to be better than 120 at 20. And no, you don't have control as to what's on the other side, but you do have control within your law firm as to how you run it, how you demand policy limits, how you don't accept low ball offers, and how you pay your lawyers really makes a big difference. There are some firms that pay on commission only and their average fee gets squeezed because if Johnny the lawyer wants to buy a Porsche this month, he might settle 15 cases or she may settle 15 cases. So the commission's there to go. Pay cash for the versus a salary plus a smaller commission, and giving incentives for hitting policy limits, going to trial, getting the right settlements. So all of that plays a part in the end result of how a law firm goes. Now watch this. This is one of my favorites. How many law firms do you guys work with? [00:25:51] Speaker B: A hundred plus. [00:25:53] Speaker A: Have you listened to phone calls that come into PI firms? [00:25:55] Speaker B: Me personally? No. But yes, we have. Absolutely. [00:25:58] Speaker A: So I listen. So let's talk about a firm that has four lawyers, 10 lawyers and 50 lawyers. And I've listened to calls from all three of those. Do you know that the client, the potential client never asks this one question? You ready? Who's your best lawyer? Because you know who they think they're hiring? [00:26:17] Speaker B: Their best lawyer. [00:26:18] Speaker A: They think they're hiring the person in the ads. [00:26:21] Speaker B: Yeah, the, the owner, the managing partner, whoever it is. Yeah. [00:26:25] Speaker A: Who May or may not be the lawyer that ever touches the case. Might not ever know anything about the case. So making sure that your team at the law firm acts like the best lawyer every single time they touch a client or a potential client is so crucial. [00:26:41] Speaker B: Yeah, 100%. [00:26:42] Speaker A: Because they will drop you like that if they're not getting the service. Now, this is your specialty. You look at reviews all the time. [00:26:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:52] Speaker A: How many negative reviews have you read that the settlement sucked? Tons. [00:26:56] Speaker B: Communication. [00:26:57] Speaker A: The settlement? [00:26:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, for sure. The settlement. No. Were you saying that the settlement sucked? [00:27:03] Speaker A: How many bad reviews have you seen out there that were about the settlement sucking versus a bad review that the service sucked? [00:27:14] Speaker B: Always the service and the communication. Every single time. [00:27:17] Speaker A: That was. [00:27:17] Speaker B: Didn't know what was going on, didn't hear back from the firm. Susie was pissy on the phone, whatever it might have been. Every single time. [00:27:24] Speaker A: I have never seen a bad review for a law firm that said the settlement was awful. The legal work sucked. But we have seen countless bad reviews over service. And again, it's not hard to give good service to people. You just have to have people that care and give a shit. Now, you work a lot with people's intake departments. What are the two words that you hear more than anything that an intake department has to have said? [00:27:53] Speaker B: Two words that I hear more that. [00:27:55] Speaker A: The intake person has to be what or what? [00:27:58] Speaker B: Empathetic And. [00:27:59] Speaker A: I don't know, Sympathy and empathy. Sympathy and empathy. [00:28:02] Speaker B: Sympathy and empathy. [00:28:04] Speaker A: So they're different. I'm going to throw this one out at you. How about just be compassionate? [00:28:09] Speaker B: Yeah, give it that. [00:28:10] Speaker A: Because asking questions about the client and caring is more important to them than. What's your name? What's your email? If we get disconnected, how do I get back to you? All this bullshit. [00:28:23] Speaker B: Do you have medical bills? [00:28:25] Speaker A: Hey, Kevin, I am so sorry you went through this. I want you to know, here at 360 plus, we have worked on thousands of cases like yours. But I want you to understand one thing. Yours is unique because it's you. And you're going to be treated that way from beginning to end. My God, doesn't that just bring the wall down? [00:28:47] Speaker B: I love it. I'd hire you. [00:28:49] Speaker A: You're awesome. [00:28:50] Speaker B: Well, so to Gary's point, I talk about this all the time. The culture of your firm is your brand. It's your marketing. It's everything. As people interact with your firm, or a lawyer, paralegal, whoever, through and through all that, it bleeds through everything. And so you know, you have. You can't have Someone answer the phone. That's not compassion, doesn't have empathy. You can't be cutting corners. You can't. I mean, you gotta just do all these things, right? But it's back to what you were saying earlier, the small, how you handle the small cases, right? Matt, Just think about every single lead that comes through that signs up as a case is always gonna be a review five star and is gonna give you a referral. What is that worth? Now? Think about the hundreds of leads or thousands that you might be coming across each day. And I always hear these firms talking about, well, we don't want soft tissue or we don't want this or we don't want this. We want the big truck case, we want the big stuff. Taking care of the little ones and figuring that out at scale is gonna lead to much more business reviews, referrals. [00:29:52] Speaker A: I'm gonna name drop right now. I was on the phone for an hour Tuesday afternoon with Larry Nussbaum out of Boston. And we were just talking about where the business began and where it is today. And he said to me, he says, you know, I am most proud of the fact that we take every case in and want to help people. Now look, we all have selfish reasons in our businesses because we do want those referrals. But you know what? You may lose a little bit on these smaller cases because of the staff that you have to have, so on and so forth. But those people need a law firm as badly as the big one does, because in their world, they don't know the difference between small and large. They just want to be heard and help. So, yes, everybody has to run their business their own way. [00:30:45] Speaker B: But yeah, and if you make those. [00:30:47] Speaker A: Make those people feel good, you have no idea what they're going to send to you next. [00:30:51] Speaker B: But you have to have a culture within your business. Law firm or my business or yours, it doesn't matter where everyone there wants to be there. They see the vision, they're excited to show up, they're all going the same direction. Then having them answer the phone or talk to a client and do the right things is that much easier. You can't treat it like a machine. It's got. It's people talking to people, right? [00:31:13] Speaker A: It's people. Like you said, people, people, people. By the way, it can be a machine with the right people. [00:31:20] Speaker B: That's right. [00:31:20] Speaker A: Or it could be a machine that's run fully automated and I don't know that it has the same success. [00:31:27] Speaker B: Agreed. It's all about the people. And no matter how far AI goes. The winners will be the ones that have the good people. [00:31:37] Speaker A: At the end of the day, all I could say is, the world needs more good people like Kevin Daisy. [00:31:42] Speaker B: Oh, Lord. Here's a story. My son talking about kid jewelry. He's always just. He likes to be a pain. I got a daughter, younger daughter, older son. He's, you know, he's just usually a pain, trying to make my daughter mad or whatever. So that's in the household. Right. You know, he's just. He's very creative, he's talented, all those good things. But sometimes you want to just strangle him. But when I hear him go out to other people's houses or at a community event or at school, he. Everyone tells me how amazing my son is, how compassionate he is, how courteous he is, respectful. And I'm like, are you talking about the same. The same kid? And me and my wife are both on the same page. I'd rather him be a pain in the ass of the house and good out in the world any day. And so we'll just deal with it. [00:32:34] Speaker A: But again, it's. We've both had arguments and said things to the people we love that the most. Our spouse, our children. Things we would never say outside of the house. Yet the people we love the most we can argue the hardest with. It's an amazing dynamic as to how that works versus saying, I'm not going to have these arguments at home. I mean, I'd prefer to not have any ever, anywhere. [00:33:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:07] Speaker A: But, you know, how old are your kids? [00:33:09] Speaker B: 14, 11. [00:33:10] Speaker A: Okay, so you're at that rambunctious age. [00:33:15] Speaker B: Yeah. High school, and one's going into middle school. [00:33:19] Speaker A: So they're going to push the envelope at home a little bit more. [00:33:22] Speaker B: Sure. [00:33:22] Speaker A: My kids are older, 32 to 21. And I'm going to throw this out at you. You understood your parents and the things that they did far better the moment your son was born than you did the day before he was born. 100%, our children are going to have the exact same thing happen to them. And you are going to see, unfortunately, some ugly conversations that will happen with your teenagers, whether it's between them or with you and your wife. But I can promise you this. Those come back around full circle. Your daughter's 11. Will she still sit on your lap? [00:34:03] Speaker B: No, sir. She's about to be 12. [00:34:05] Speaker A: That hurts. That hurts, though, right? That hurts. [00:34:08] Speaker B: So don't give me a hug and go to daddy daughter dinner once a year. [00:34:13] Speaker A: I still kiss my kids hello and goodbye. My son, too, every time I see them. And it's far less frequent than you get to see your children because mine are all out of college. Well, almost out of college, so it's important. Now I play pickleball with my son on the weekends, trying to get my girls involved, but it's too hot for them. [00:34:33] Speaker B: We are down in Florida. It's hot all the time. [00:34:35] Speaker A: There's a reason we're here. I don't want your winter. [00:34:38] Speaker B: It's hot up here in Virginia, but it'll get cold quick. So it's on the way. On the way, Gary. Well, Gary, man, I appreciate you always on the show, just talking real talk. I guess the moral story, it's all about people, relationships and no sales pitch, no pitching, no sales. I don't. I don't sell. I don't not really want to. To do that. Show up yourself, meet people. You don't have to talk about what you do. [00:35:03] Speaker A: Again, I think that the name of this episode should act actually be People Matter. But I'm grateful to be your friend. I'm grateful that you have a platform that I could join on. And I am excited for you to buy your pimcon ticket because I want to see you out in Phoenix. [00:35:20] Speaker B: Well, I will go look it up. I'll message Chris himself and tell him. [00:35:24] Speaker A: That'S they see now that's how you get. [00:35:27] Speaker B: Damn right I'm by the ticket. I don't need to get a ticket. [00:35:30] Speaker A: By the way, since we gave. We gave Chris and Jason some. Some kudos here today. I heard about your golf cart from Jason. I had a conversation with him this morning. [00:35:39] Speaker B: I thought of Jason yesterday. He's actually coming to the podcast next week after this recording. [00:35:44] Speaker A: He told me. Yeah. [00:35:46] Speaker B: Yeah. So we're gonna talk about some fun stuff and. Yeah, no problem. Every competitor I have is welcome on the show. [00:35:55] Speaker A: Wait a minute. You know what? Why don't you guys talk about technical SEO and really get everybody excited? [00:36:03] Speaker B: Yeah. I thought I was like, let's not talk about SEO at all. He's like, yeah, that's fine. It's like we're going to talk about business and. [00:36:11] Speaker A: And I'm going to give you an interesting fun fact, which I'm sure you know, Jason just became a grandfather. [00:36:16] Speaker B: I saw his post on that. That's awesome. I got a little ways for that to happen. [00:36:20] Speaker A: He's got three great kids. I know them all personally. It'll be a fun episode to listen to you two chat it up. [00:36:28] Speaker B: Yeah. I reached out and said, hey, would you Come on the podcast. He said absolutely. So, yeah, we chatted yesterday and I was helping him try to find a good golf cart to get to his. For his new neighborhood that he just moved into. So, yeah, I talk to Jason all the time, you know, friends with all these folks on Facebook and LinkedIn and every competitor of mine. I've had many of them on the show and happy to do that. And there's plenty of work out. [00:36:51] Speaker A: All of us. [00:36:51] Speaker B: Some clients, some law firms are fit, some are not. Some have exclusivity, some don't. Just how they're trying to help, you know, as many. Many as we. As we can. But we're not always the right fit for everybody. [00:37:02] Speaker A: No, we're not. [00:37:02] Speaker B: It's good to have. [00:37:03] Speaker A: So I'm going to ask you my favorite question. You ready? [00:37:05] Speaker B: Throw it at me. [00:37:06] Speaker A: Turning it around on you. You get to see one concert the rest of your life. Living or dead? Band artist, who are you going to see? And then you get to pick anywhere in the world to see the show. Who and where. [00:37:19] Speaker B: Actually is a show that happened recently, which I didn't take advantage of participating in. And it was Metallica, they played at Lane Stadium, which is Virginia Tech's stadium. And that's the only time that'll ever happen again. And I had lots of friends that went. [00:37:34] Speaker A: And I. [00:37:34] Speaker B: Me and my wife didn't secure tickets, but if I could get that repeated, that'd be pretty awesome to be able to go. [00:37:40] Speaker A: Okay, so. So here's what I'm going to say to you. After you call Chris, go on this thing called Google and see where Metallica's playing next and buy the tickets and go to the show. [00:37:52] Speaker B: Yummy. Spend a lot of money today, Gary. [00:37:54] Speaker A: But first, first I'm going to say you'd be investing money. One is business related, one is relationship related, and both deserve the biggest investments in the world. [00:38:06] Speaker B: Amen, buddy. You gotta go do things. Yeah, that would be awesome. I'm gonna do. I'm gonna do both. I'll Google that. And I will look at the pimcom dates and see if I can be there, if I can. Done deal. [00:38:18] Speaker A: Well, I'm excited to actually see you in person and give you that hug and have a bourbon with you. [00:38:23] Speaker B: You're gonna be at Law de Gras, too. [00:38:25] Speaker A: I am at Law de Gras. I'm at pimcon and I am contemplating business a lot. I don't like the fact that it's three trips in a row. West Coast. Yeah, I did just book Garrett. I think you met Garrett, my director of sales. [00:38:41] Speaker B: Yeah, Garrett's awesome. [00:38:42] Speaker A: He's going to Fireproof in September. [00:38:45] Speaker B: I was looking at going to that. [00:38:46] Speaker A: Too, so I. I'm not. Oh, hey, Steve. Steve. [00:38:50] Speaker C: What's up, gents? How you doing? [00:38:52] Speaker A: Wow, Steve, we've never met, but, man, I follow you everywhere. Well, all right. [00:38:56] Speaker C: Yeah, I see you, too, Gary. On a pretty regular basis. [00:38:59] Speaker B: I'm glad you guys can meet. [00:39:01] Speaker C: What's going on? It's like, I just came late to the party. [00:39:04] Speaker A: You did. So I'm going to ask you the same question. [00:39:06] Speaker B: You're recording still me and G. Gary, you're jumping on early, so I'm jumping on your call. [00:39:10] Speaker C: Oh, my God, this is awesome. [00:39:12] Speaker A: Wait a minute. [00:39:12] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:39:13] Speaker A: This is great. I'm gonna ask you an icebreaker question, all right. That I asked Kevin at the end. Steve, you get to go see one last concert. Living or dead artist, doesn't matter. Who do you want to see? And you get to pick anywhere in the world to see the show. Where would you see it? [00:39:30] Speaker C: Oh, my God. [00:39:32] Speaker B: I know, right? [00:39:33] Speaker C: That is tough. I would probably say, like, Queen at Wembley. Like, that would be, like, a dream come true. [00:39:40] Speaker A: That. [00:39:40] Speaker C: That would be the most incredible concert. I lose my mind now. [00:39:44] Speaker A: Would you see Queen with the. The American Idol winner? [00:39:47] Speaker C: My wife did a couple times. I was not. [00:39:49] Speaker A: And you didn't go with her? [00:39:50] Speaker C: Was not invited. She took her mother. [00:39:53] Speaker A: That's all right. Okay. That's important. [00:39:55] Speaker C: This was. Yeah, this was. This was their thing, and. And they. They both watched the show and they went through the whole ordeal, and I was like, it's not really Queen to me. Whatever. You go do it anyway. But. But yeah, and I still think they're very good. I still think it's good with. What's the guy's name? [00:40:08] Speaker A: Adam Lambert. [00:40:09] Speaker C: Yeah, Adam Lambert. Still, he's an amazing performer. But that. I've not witnessed that live, but. But she has a few times. So what were your answers? [00:40:18] Speaker A: Well, I want to see Springsteen in Jerusalem at the Wall. [00:40:21] Speaker C: Was that a thing or is that not a. [00:40:24] Speaker A: That is not happening. [00:40:25] Speaker C: It's not a thing, but. Okay. [00:40:29] Speaker A: That is my Mecca. But I've seen Bruce 117. [00:40:34] Speaker C: Oh, my God. [00:40:34] Speaker A: Wow. [00:40:35] Speaker B: Really? [00:40:36] Speaker C: You excited for the new movie coming out? [00:40:38] Speaker A: Anything that he does other than politics. And by the way, forget sides. I don't want to hear any artist talking about politics. Yeah, go sing. That's what you're paid to do in today's prices. You should sing a little bit longer. [00:40:52] Speaker C: Yeah, make the show. [00:40:53] Speaker A: But I think my favorite band with a new singer is Journey. I think that kid from the Philippines really, really did a great job with what Steve Perry does. Yeah. But my next concert is that I have tickets to, aside from the iHeart Music Festival, which isn't really a concert, is Stevie Nicks, who is one of my favorite female artists in the world. Yeah, I love that rap voice. [00:41:20] Speaker B: We're taking my two. [00:41:22] Speaker A: I'm gonna let you two do your special thing because I have a three o' clock that I gotta get on. Well, what I was saying, Steve, Kevin, thank you for making this happen. Steve, you were set up specifically to be on after me, so I can meet you. [00:41:36] Speaker C: There you go. Yeah, and let's get together offline on a zoom or something in the next couple weeks. [00:41:40] Speaker A: We love that. [00:41:41] Speaker B: Back to the episode real quick. Since we're still recording all about good people. So you know, I've been friends with Steve for a while, Gary. They've never met. So live on the podcast. Please connect, guys. And if you want me to connect you somehow, let me know. [00:41:54] Speaker A: This was. This was a bonus, Steve. Seriously. Pleasure to meet. [00:41:57] Speaker C: Gary's easy to find. He's all over LinkedIn like me. I guess we're too. [00:42:01] Speaker B: You can find Gary anywhere. [00:42:02] Speaker A: Love you, Kevin. Thank you again. [00:42:04] Speaker B: Thanks, Gary brother. I'll see you soon.