Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: AI is wonderful. It's the next big thing in the world. You know, the Internet was great, but AI has learned how to use it. It's just really going to change the law profession. But you still have to be able to personally connect with your client, and that's something I hope particularly the young generation doesn't lose sight of. Learn those communication skills, sit down, listen to what your clients say, because you got to know the law. You got to know the facts. You know how that applies to your client situation. And if you're not listening and if you're not watching their body language, you know you're going to lose a lot. I just hope that law profession doesn't get away from that.
[00:00:51] Speaker B: Most firms survive. The best ones scale.
Welcome to the Managing Partners Podcast, where law firm leaders learn to think bigger. I'm Kevin. Daisy. Let's jump in. What is up, everyone?
Welcome back to the Managing Partners podcast. Today I got a familiar face, friend, client, but Don Makari is here. But he was on the show a few years back, so had him on and have him back to talk about some different topics today. And he's had a long career and, and actually his office building is right beside ours at Array Digital here, so just wanted to bring him back on and kind of dive into some, some real topics and learn as much as we can. Hear from Don today. So, Don, welcome to the show.
[00:01:43] Speaker A: Thanks, Kevin. Good be back and thank you for all your hard work to help us grow our business. So we appreciate it.
[00:01:51] Speaker B: You're very welcome, sir. I appreciate that. Yeah. Don is a client.
He has a amazing firm.
I grew up seeing his commercials on TV and, and, and we'll talk about something in just a bit too, because you've probably seen Don on TV or not Don himself, but Don's story on on TV and we'll talk about that at the end. But, but Don. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about yourself and, and your firm and how people can, can look you up and find, find the firm.
[00:02:21] Speaker A: Thanks, Kev. I've been, as you said, practicing for a while. I think it's my 41st year practicing law, which is kind of hard to believe.
I started out in the Navy in the JAG Corps. That's how I got to Norfolk. Was in the JAG Corps for four years doing mostly criminal work. I was on the mobile trial team. They fly us out to aircraft carriers. We try cases seven days a week, 20 hours a day. You know, Gitmo, Sigonila, wherever they need something tried.
When I got out, I joined Two other fellows here in, in Tidewater. And we had a general practice firm for about six years just doing, you know, the Hammond Egg Circuit. Traffic, divorce, real estate, personal injury. And then in 2000, me and 12 other people, we decided to, um, start our own personal injury firm. We thought we could, you know, do it. Do it better.
We hope we do it better.
So we've grown from 13 people to a little bit over 100 people now.
Have offices in Tidewater in Raleigh, North Carolina. Fayetteville, North Carolina.
Charlotte, North Carolina. We have a big veterans practice that's handles clients nationwide. Dave Rosado, one of my partners. I trained in the Navy 40 something years ago.
Ace Prince, I hired as an associate 1995.
I bred Val in 2003. So we've been together a long time.
Do a lot of Camp LeJune cases. So a lot of our clients are military and, you know, we're pretty familiar with, with their backgrounds and the hardships they go through. So, you know, we do personal injury veterans practice Camp Lejeune, and We're entering our 26th year now as a firm.
[00:04:15] Speaker B: Yeah, very impressive. Awesome background and story.
Again, I mentioned this.
We'll talk about this later, but the. The movie A Few Good Men was actually about Don and, and his story. So we'll dive into that at the end. But stick around because you're going to want to hear more about that and how Tom Cruise.
[00:04:40] Speaker A: Yeah, there was no Demi Moore. So maybe, I don't know, maybe you don't want to stick around. Who knows?
[00:04:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I thought Don looked better than Tom Cruise, so they should just put,
[00:04:50] Speaker A: well, John Kennedy was dead at the time, so, you know, they had a guess, somebody to do it.
[00:04:57] Speaker B: Well, yeah, I look forward to talking about that here soon. Yeah. So impressive growth. You know, this podcast is all about growing and scaling and running and operating a law firm. So we just like to cover the ins and outs and people, you know, want to hear your story, your success and how long you've been at it and the things that you've seen. So one of the topics I had down for you is.
Is amazing. So this is lessons you've Learned after, what, 200 jury trials?
[00:05:30] Speaker A: Probably a little bit over that now, right?
[00:05:32] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So give us, you know, the good, the bad, the ugly. What is. What is some of the, you know, the main. The main takeaways, things that you've seen in your career that have been aha. Moments or big, big things within your business?
[00:05:45] Speaker A: Well, I think, you know, the. We were talking a little bit before we went on the air. You know, the changes that I've seen In the last 40 years, I mean, I started out when we had Selectric typewriters and carbon paper and, you know, our calendars were in a little box with, you know, the days of the week. So, you know, I've seen a tremendous amount of change in, in the law profession.
You know, the going to court. You know, I think the one failing. And we've got the best justice system in the world, but I think the one failing of our, of our system is that, you know, the day you graduate from law school, you can go try a capital murder case. In fact, that was my situation with the Few Good Men. That was my first trial, you know, handling an attempted murder case. You know, in England, they have barristers and solicitors. You know, the solicitors don't go to court, the barristers do. So I think one biggest lesson, probably from. From all the years in the courtroom across various states, is that, you know, trial work appears sexy on tv. You know, you. You see a big trial in an hour and somebody confesses and, you know, but it's not. It's not like that real life. I think to, to be a good trial lawyer, you have to really be prepared. You have to know every fact. I was speaking when nephew Bailey was alive. We were talking, he was a Marine Corps jag, and we were speaking together and, you know, he said that if you, if you knew all the facts, you were. You were a hard man to deal with.
So I think the biggest probably lesson is if you're going in the courtroom, and I still learn something every day, every trial, every deposition, you have to be prepared. You have to know the rules of evidence. And the biggest thing that I find is that the jury has to have trust in you, right?
Can't convince 7 people in Virginia, 12 people in North Carolina, you know, something that they don't believe in and because they come in the courtroom with their life experiences, right?
So you have to build that trust and rapport. And that starts the minute you enter that courtroom. You know, I may be best friends with the defense counsel, but I, I told my client, look, I'm not shaking his hand. I'll be respectful. But, you know, if they see us yucking up in the hallway and in the courtroom we're battling, they kind of get a mismess. So probably the biggest lesson in file work is just, you know, if you're going to do it, no, you got to be prepared. Don't take shortcuts. It's not an Easy way of life. I've spent looking back many weekends, nights, preparing openings, closings.
You have to know every fact and then you have to understand that no trial ever goes the way you think it's going to go. Right. You have to be ready for. They would say, never let them see you sweat. Right. So something, something's going to come up that you're not going to expect, and you got to deal with it. So it's a great life. It's a Israel's life, but it's a stressful life. And if you're going to do it, you know, be prepared.
[00:08:41] Speaker B: Yeah, we were kind of talking too, you know.
Yeah, a lot of technology with COVID We had, you know, video and zoom calls and things like that. And I was talking to some attorneys recently that got into in person and because of the things that you're saying where, you know, body language, you know, that connection, and this is true, I think, you know, through lots of things in marketing and with your clients, whether they choose your firm or someone else, and do they have that connection? Can you build rapport? Do they trust you?
That's what we're always trying to do with, with anybody, I think as we interact throughout the day. But with all the technology and advancements is, you know, we don't want new lawyers to come around and kind of lose sight of that and, you know, take the shortcuts, if you will.
[00:09:29] Speaker A: So if I, you know, if I could give any advice to particularly young lawyers, I mean, now we're on our phone so much, you know, everybody wants my kids, they'll text me, you know, they don't want pick up photo, call me, but they want text. You know, we get all our information from the phone. We get our news from the phone. And I think we, we're in danger of, of losing that personal connection. How to look somebody in the eye, you know, how to read their body language, how to answer their question. I mean, AI is, is, is, is wonderful. It's the next big thing, I think, in, in the world. I mean, it's, it's a, you know, the Internet was great, but AI has learned how to use it. It's just really going to change the law profession. But you still have to be able to personally connect, you know, with your client.
And that's something I hope the, the, particularly the young generation doesn't lose sight of, learn those communication skills, you know, sit down, listen to what your client's saying, right? And then, you know, because you got another law, you, you got to know the Facts, you know how that applies to your client situation. And if you're not listening and if you're not watching their body language, you know, you're going to lose a lot. I just hope that law profession doesn't get away from that because I think that's our, our biggest, you know, we, we deal with people's problems every day. Yes. Why they come to us, they need advice, they don't know what to do.
You got understand where they're coming from.
[00:10:51] Speaker B: Yeah, amen. I agree with you on that. And I think for anyone at any job, younger folks, you know, if they, they don't have the skills to talk and interact and you know, it's going to be a challenge for them in any position that they might be in. But hopefully we'll, we'll stay on track with that. So, so another, another question I have for you. So this is the 1% rule. If anyone's knows this but you, you know, when I talked about rethinking the 1% rule, and I just want to know more about what you're doing, your thoughts around that.
[00:11:23] Speaker A: It, it's horrible.
You know, the, what you're talking about is contributory negligence, the jury instruction. You know, the judge instructs a jury that if you find any negligence on the part of the plaintiff that contributes to his accident, then he can't recover. It's a bar to recovery. You know, most states have comparative negligence. You know, if you're 20% of fault, you still recover 80% of your damages. But in North Carolina, Virginia and I think two other states in the country, that contributory negligence is, is a bar to recovery. And it's a, it's a terribly harsh rule.
We can, you know, I'm on the board of governors for the Virginia Trial Lawyers Association, a member of the North Carolina Academy of Justice. You know, we, every year we try to get our legislature to change that rule because it's truly unfair.
Because you can.
And it's the first thing that the insurance adjuster wants to talk about. Well, your client didn't keep a proper look at. Well, your client didn't do that. Well, you cl. I mean, you can find 1%, you know, in any situation.
So I think it's, you know, but we're stuck with it.
You know, we, we try to deal with it the best we can.
You know, there's Some other rule evidence 414 in North Carolina where you can only put in what it actually costs to satisfy the bill, not what the bill actually is.
So the, you know, you Just gotta, I mean, you deal with the, the laws as they come. But it's a, it's a terribly harsh doctrine.
[00:12:54] Speaker B: You know, use it on these boards, is I, I assume the boards, these groups are doing what they can to, to, to get these changed. What do you, you know, what is your outlook or thoughts on the possibility of that happening?
[00:13:09] Speaker A: Well, I, I think, you know, there's so much, you know, tr. Trial lawyers and lawyers in general. I don't know where we rank in the, you know, we're probably above Congress maybe, but, you know, we're pretty far down the scale.
You know, but nobody likes their lawyer until they need one. Right.
You know, and they, they, they hear these stories where they're about frivolous lawsuits. And I can tell you, I think in my 40 years, I don't, I've never filed a frivolous lawsuit. Right.
Because it takes my time, my money, my clients time.
But you hear stories about, oh, McDonald's, the coffee spilled on the lady's lap and she got hot coffee. Yeah, but if you know the facts of that case, it's, it's that, it's completely, you know, people, if they knew the facts, they would, I mean, she ended up getting, I think 600,000, you know, McDonald's had that coffee at 182 degrees, which is higher than the water, and irradiated the car. They had over 300 complaints. She was terribly scarred. But, you know, they hear the sensationalism of it.
So the, you know, I don't think. Listen, until, until you need a lawyer.
You know, I don't know. You know, I don't. We don't get much sympathy, but that's okay. I mean, we're big. We're big boys and girls.
So, you know, I think you would need a legislature or members of the legislature that have actually, God forbid, you know, have been injured or been in an accident. And they can see really how it affects somebody. You know, they have a good car, they're working pain, they can't go to work, they can't support their family.
You know, there's a lot of, A lot of things that can happen to. I mean, the medical malpractice cap in Virginia, you know, we can. The juries in Virginia can award the death penalty to somebody, yet they're not smart enough to, to say what a person's injuries are worth. The man, you know, it doesn't make sense. But as far as change, I don't see.
We'll keep trying. I don't see it.
[00:15:14] Speaker B: Well, yeah, I Mean, I know different states have lots of different laws and regulations and things that I hear about often on the show. I'm not a lawyer, so I don't understand all of it. Something over my head, but definitely a lot of lawyers I know that are out fighting for change and reform and stuff like that. So that's a. I think, a constant battle. So let's. Let's talk about the. The real story, I guess, that inspired the movie A Few Good Men. Your. Your first case? Yeah. Tell us. Tell us what? We don't know if we've seen the movie.
If you haven't seen the movie. Right. After listening to this, you definitely gotta go.
[00:15:49] Speaker A: It's a great movie. They still.
They came out in 1992, whatever. But it's still a, you know, it's. It's still one of the best legal dramas around. And Aaron Sword did a great job.
[00:16:02] Speaker B: Yeah, you can't handle the truth.
[00:16:04] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:16:05] Speaker B: Probably one of the most famous lines.
Yeah.
[00:16:08] Speaker A: You know, I was stated at Oceana, here at the Air Jet Bates, and, you know, we got a call that there were 10 Marines in the brig down in Guantanamo Bay. They were charged with attempted murder. They all made confessions. And the. They doing these things called a Code Red, which was like a distant, you know, blanket parties. The military has been doing it forever, and they probably still doing it today. You know, somebody doesn't shower, they scrub them with a scrub brush. If they drop their weapon, they put glue on their hands. You know, it's a form of. It's a form of interdisciplinary procedures. And so anyway, the. The.
They were doing his Code Red when this kid got injured. And so my employed one lawyer, defense lawyer down in Gitmo. My lyc said, look, you know, the colonel's getting ready to put on a star. She thought if I would get down there quickly, I could, you know, get a good deal for my client. So I got the Mac terminal, flew down to Gitmo in July, my little white uniform, and met with the colonel. And, you know, he said, These are the 10 best Marines in the company. You know, what they did was wrong. We don't allow these Code Reds, which bs. But, you know, instead of going to court, you know, where he faces 20 years of Leavenworth, you know, I'll give him administrative discharge. He can just come home, you know, no criminal conviction. So I'm thinking, man, I'm. I'm a hero. I'm good. So, you know, I go into the brig down there, and my client, David Cox, he was the assistant squad leader, he jumps up, said, sir, Lieutenant Makari, sir, I said, hey, I'm Don McCari. I'm your lawyer. I said, understand? Here's your charge sheet, you know, here's your confession.
I said, but I got a great deal for you. And he goes, what's that? So, well, if you plead guilty, the colonel will give you an admin discharge. You can go home. No criminal conviction. He looks at me, says, well, sir, can't do that. And I go, what do you mean you can't do that? You already made a confession. He goes, well, I was just following orders. I'm like, oh, great. You know, and that was the. That's a defense in the military that Lt. C used in my life with the Nuremberg defendants used. So anyway, then we're. We're off to court and, and seven of the other Marines, you know, took the deal and went home. My client, two others end up going to court, and he was. My client was found guilty of simple assault because they. The jury found there was an implied order.
And what happened was the. This kid Alvarado, who was the victim, he was one of the worst Marines in the company.
You know, he would fall off and fall out of runs, and he wore his hair long. And it would. It was actually a fence line shooting in Cuba. We have a, you know, a base down there at the bottom of Cuba. It's about 45 square miles. It was a pain in Castro's side. And one day with about a thousand yards, you know, our guard shack, mirrors their guard shack. And one day one of the Marines said, well, I bet I could hit that Cuban guard and the other Marines. I don't think you can. And so he fired over the fence line into Cuba and became an international incident. And the, The NIS at the time, now it's. The ncis, got involved and came down and, you know, had the, you know, told the lieutenant was actually a captain, but Lieutenant Colonel in the movie, you know, that it was a Marine that had reported this fence line shooting. And, you know, so the captain got the, the squad together on a Friday and said, look, we've got this, you know, disloyal Marine. He broke chain of command.
He said, I'm disappointed in your kids. So he walks out. And then the first lieutenant, who's was played by Kiefer Sutherland, gets the four squad leaders aside and says, hey, it's this kid Alvarado who's knocking on you. He said, now I don't want you to take him up to the third deck and Throw him off and kill him. But if he falls down the steps late at night, oh, well, right. So the kids, you know, the next day that, you know, the kids are all talking about, we're going to get this kid Alvarado. He's a narc, he's a snitch. And the lieutenant colonel hears all this and goes to the colonel and said, hey, Colonel, we better transfer Alberto off the island because he's going to get his ass kicked. And the colonel said, well, if he wants to be a snitch, let him sweat it out over the weekend. Right? So now the kids hear all this. So that night, 10 of them go in there and they cam me up and they went in the, in the barracks with the intention of just shaving Alvarado's head to embarrassment formation. But they put a gag in his mouth, ending up suffocating, and had to be medevaced off the island. But he survived. So it was, it was, you know, that, that was, that's. The jury found that there was definitely an implied order and my client got to, got to stay in the Marine Corps.
The way it became a movie was one of the other seven was represented by a lawyer named Debbie Sorkin, was Aaron Sorkin sister.
And you know, Aaron at that time was a 28 year old unknown playwright and she got the record trial for the Article 32. And, and then he made a play out of it that ran on Broadway and then Rob Reiner bought the, bought the playwrights and made a movie and the rest is history.
[00:21:31] Speaker B: Anyone listening? You haven't seen the movie. Hopefully you have if you're a lawyer and you're listening to the show. But yeah, A Few Good Men. Yeah, I think 1992 came out.
[00:21:41] Speaker A: Yep. Yeah.
[00:21:43] Speaker B: What was some other big actors in there? So, yeah, Keith Sutherland, Tom Cruise, Jack Nicholson, Jack Nichols.
[00:21:48] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Demi Moore.
[00:21:50] Speaker B: Yeah, Demi Moore. I mean, a huge hit, big movie.
[00:21:54] Speaker A: Yeah. Yep.
[00:21:55] Speaker B: All because of Don.
[00:22:01] Speaker A: Better be lucky than good sometimes.
[00:22:04] Speaker B: Yeah. I think last time I had you on the show, I was like, when's the last time you've seen it? And you were like, I don't know. It's been, it's been a long time.
[00:22:10] Speaker A: Every time it comes on, you know, somebody, one of my buddies always, you know, they start texting me and, you know, you can't handle the truth, you know, so.
[00:22:17] Speaker B: Well. Yeah, I appreciate you sharing, you know, this, that story and, you know, and then of course, just, you know, some of the lessons that, you know, you've learned throughout your career and, and you're still at it.
[00:22:27] Speaker A: Still at it.
[00:22:28] Speaker B: You know, I don't know how Don's been a lawyer for 40 years and he, he's only 46 years old, so. That's right.
[00:22:33] Speaker A: Youngster child prodigies. Yes.
[00:22:37] Speaker B: Right.
Well, for, for our younger attorneys out there or our startups, you know, people trying to go off on their own, what's the tip? You'd leave them with some of encouragement to hang in their own shingle.
[00:22:52] Speaker A: I think the, you know, the, the practice of law, the law is a tough taskmaster, but it's a great profession. Let's say I've been doing it over four years and, and still enjoy coming to work every day.
Probably the, the biggest lesson is a couple things. You know, find an area of the law that, that you really enjoy, that you're passionate about.
Can be real estate, can be criminal, can be family law, contracts, whatever. Yeah. Because it is, it's not a 9 to 5 job. I mean, you, you'll be thinking about it and you know, whether you're an associate or you own your own practice, you know, it consumes a lot of your, your time. And I guess next words of advice would be that, you know, you've got to treat it, it is a profession and it's an honor profession, but you got to treat it like a business.
You know, a lot of successful lawyers out there don't have clients, you know, run in trouble with the irs. I mean, we have, you know, we have a management team that, you know, consists of a cfo, a director of it, director of advertising, human resource director. So while it is a profession and an honored one, you gotta treat it as a business a hundred percent.
[00:24:05] Speaker B: That's what, that's what this podcast is all about. And yeah, and people ask me all the time.
I was on two podcasts actually, this morning, other people's podcast, and they were asking me, hey, what's the secret? What's the trick to SEO or marketing or whatever, our AI search? And they asked me, you know, what's a successful client look like for, for us?
And I always go back to the same thing. They run a good business, meaning they, that means everything, right? The culture matters, processes taking care of the client all the way through the work.
But you just have to focus on running a great business, right? You know, put people in place, delegate.
So it's a long winded answer to say, you know, if you want to skip all those things, it's just not going to work out well, and then your marketing partner or whoever is not going to have an easy time working with you and, and getting the results you need. So.
[00:25:02] Speaker A: Well, marketing is crucial. I mean, you know, we're nothing without clients, unfortunately. And now, as you know, I mean, you get inundated. You know, you got people on billboards, on tv, on the Internet, on Legion, but that's the way of the world, you know, and then once you get those clients, then you got to treat them good, you know, because, you know, the best advertising is word of mouth. Right. That's the cheapest way. But you know that you, you got to have clients, you know, so you, you got to market.
[00:25:30] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you know, and again, so you get the clients, you do a bad job or don't have good processes or, and not intentionally do a bad job. You just don't have, you don't have things in place to handle it.
[00:25:42] Speaker A: Right.
[00:25:43] Speaker B: Well, then you're doing them a disservice. Then, you know, you're getting a bad reputation. Then marketing starts to not work no matter what. And it's a whole, a whole cycle. So, yeah, you just got to focus on your business, run it like a business.
Very honorable profession. So, yeah, bring in other people smarter than you on the other things. Don has a great, a great team around him.
I've met quite a few of them. And even his head of marketing, Andrea, we do a lot of heavy lifting, but she's controlling the narrative, the strategy that we're executing. So it's important to delegate and bring in the right people.
Well, Don, I appreciate great advice.
Young attorneys out there looking for a long career, hopefully looking to start their own firm and, and do what they love. And hopefully this podcast is here just to help them gain a little insight and something they can apply to their own practice. So check out don's donmcari.com if you want to connect with him directly. You can ask me and I will make that happen. Don, is there any other way folks can reach out?
[00:26:50] Speaker A: Yeah, they can call our toll free number, 877-975-2000. I'd love to, you know, I'd love to mentor, you know, people.
Just have a question about practical law. Just reach out to chat.
[00:27:05] Speaker B: Take him up on that. If you, you know, are serious and you need help, have questions.
I know Don would love to chat and talk. So any attorneys, again, if you want a personal intro, I can make that happen and I'm happy to do so. So thank you all so much for listening to another episode. Go check out A Few Good Men if you haven't or just go refresh it. It's a good movie to watch anytime.
And think about Don when you see Tom Cruise in that movie £40 ago.
[00:27:35] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:27:38] Speaker B: All right.
[00:27:39] Speaker A: Thank you. It's been a pleasure as always.
[00:27:42] Speaker B: Absolutely looking forward to. To seeing this and. And I'll see you soon. So, everyone, thanks so much.
[00:27:49] Speaker A: Take care, Sam.
