Hire Slow, Scale Smart: The Real Law Firm Staffing Playbook

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Either a hell yes or it's a no. I don't know how many times that we've had a couple managers going, yeah, look, I really like this person. We need this person. We're kind of struggling over here. And then you go, is it a hell yes? And they go, and if they even like, breathe in, like they missing the help part. [00:00:16] Speaker B: If you take a breath. Yeah. Then. [00:00:18] Speaker A: Then you're like, what is it? And they're like, well, you know, there's this, this one thing that I'm concerned about. What's our rule here? Hell yes or not. And, you know, they just, they need the help, but they agree at the same time. It's hard to turn down to someone that's almost per. But if you can live by that, it's going to help you. Most firms survive the best ones scale. Welcome to the Managing Partners podcast, where law firm leaders learn to think bigger. I'm Kevin Daisy. Let's jump in. What is up, everyone? Kevin Daisy here, your host. Welcome to an episode of the Managing Partners podcast. I have a new friend here. When I say new, I just met him backstage, but he works with a group that I've known about for quite a while, and I was just telling him I didn't really haven't met a lot of people from. From Atticus, and I'm excited today to have David on the show. So welcome. [00:01:34] Speaker B: Well, thank you, Kevin. I'm really excited to be here. Excited to expose you a little bit more to Atticus and your. Your audience and just excited to talk. Talk with you and talk about the thing that we're going to talk about, which I think is going to be staffing. So thanks for having me on the podcast. Appreciate it. [00:01:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So Daniel is a attorney, He's a coach. He's been with Atticus for almost 11 years now. Yeah, 11 years, wow. So I get, you know, tart off by, you know, maybe telling everyone maybe a little bit of your background leading up to being with Atticus and. Sure. And we have a special topic today we'll be covering, which is a hot item, I think, with a lot of firms is staffing, but not just staffing. We're going to go into all the aspects, all the things that go around that. And I'm excited about that topic today. [00:02:27] Speaker B: Yeah, me too. I think I'm very excited about it. I. A little bit about myself without. I'll do the abbreviated version. So I, you know, I sort of went to law school late in life. I think I was in my mid-30s when I graduated law school, I went to law school in Boston, became barred in Florida, Massachusetts. I'm originally from Florida and. But I was a bit of a vagabond. Vagabond, you know, I, I, I right outta law school, I didn't practice law. I went in, worked for basically a good sized staffing company in the northeast. And then I did this really odd thing which was I took a position down in Bogota, Colombia. So I went down to Bogota for almost two years, just about two years, and spent time there managing luxury housing development and a very, very popular restaurant right outside the city. It was a really amazing experience and I learned a lot of things and had a lot of experiences that were fantastic and that definitely have affected, you know, how I see the world and sort of how I do what I do now in my coaching. But when I came back from Columbia after those two years then I finally decided to, you know, put on the lawyer hat and practice law for a bit. I thought I was going to do it, you know, long term and didn't work out that way. I, you know, honestly, the practicing of law, being a lawyer, which I did for a little while, it just wasn't the thing that was, I was passionate about, which probably should have already been clear to me by the fact that I had delayed even, you know, sort of getting into it after, you know, coming out of law school. And that's where I met, it was at that moment that I met Atticus, you know, about 11 years ago. So our paths crossed and you know, I started working with Atticus and I've never looked back and I'm definitely, you know, not a vagabond anymore. I love what I do. So now I'm full time into coaching, working all day, every day. It's working with attorneys, working with law firms, working with law firm teams on basically the business side of growing, leading, managing, maintaining, sustaining a law firm. So that's what I do and I really love it. I love the people I get to work with internally at Atticus, but also the people I get to work with every day. The, the, the Atticus members that I coach, which is a privilege to do so. So that's sort of a brief, you know, version of my background and I left out some things, but that's the abbreviated version. [00:04:57] Speaker A: No, I, that's awesome. I love that background and kind of you, you know, noticing and figuring out earlier on that hey, the practice of law, you know, maybe not have been for you and I, and I know a lot of lawyers like that that I'VE had on this show. They might still have a law firm, but that's. They decided that's just not their thing. They love the business side and I think it's important for anyone listening lawyers to figure that out. Like, do you love the practice of law? If you do, then that's the direction you should go. Hire people, bring in coaches to help with the business side. [00:05:30] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:05:32] Speaker A: Vice versa then. Yeah, bring in good lawyers and try not to be the best lawyer. Focus on the business. [00:05:38] Speaker B: Exactly. Yep. [00:05:40] Speaker A: But we still need coaches and we still need outside help. That's part of this podcast, you know, that's just to kind of help a little bit. You know, each episode might bring a little bit of information, but to have someone to work with directly to turn to that has other resources, you know, and it sounds like Atticus has, has just that. So real quick for Atticus again. I, you know, as I've known about you all for a while, but I'm sure been less interactions. Anyone listening or firm listening right now, like, what's, what's a great point where, you know, addicts makes sense for a firm? You know, where are they in their headspace or their size for people maybe that are wondering. [00:06:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say, you know, the, the headspace is probably there at that stage where you know, maybe like I was, you know, 11 years back or so that they. Maybe they're. Or maybe a little bit different, but there's something going on in their day to day sort of running of the firm that they're, they're just not. Either they're not enjoying it or it's maybe even more likely it's just sort of sucking every minute and every sort of, you know, fiber of their being out of them. You know, it's like somebody, you know, law firm. So many lawyers will start a law firm thinking they just want to get free of whatever it is that they're, you know, sort of feel like is keeping them sort of unfree at that moment. And so they all open the firm. I'll be more free. I'll be my own boss. My time will be mine, you know, my money will be mine, all the things. And then they, you know, they sort of, A lot of times they've realized that that's the sort of thing that they told themselves in that moment isn't coming true a year later or five years later, even 10 years later. So the headspace is often like they're very successful attorneys. They're. I don't coach anybody on how to be a great attorney. I mean, they already. They know more than I do, of course, about being a great lawyer. That's not my space. But their headspace is really. I know how to be a great lawyer. Maybe I don't know as much as I had hoped I did about being a great leader or owner or manager. I don't even know how to, like, how do I. What do I have to do to sort of make the. The sort of incremental shifts over time so that I could get rid of, you know, take this hat off and put this other hat on, like, intentionally. So I think that's the headspace. Like, they're seeing that there's something sort of missing and they need to make a shift, and they're just not. They don't. Like you said, they don't either want to do it alone or feel like they should do it alone. And I would say I obviously totally agree with that. And so they're just looking for, you know, support and resources and accountability, which I think is a big part of successful coaching. So all those things are sort of coming together and say, I need. Something has to change for me to get from where I am right now to where I envisioned that I was going to be at this point. And I'm not there yet. So there's recognizing that something's missing and they need sort of a boost. And it's usually on the. The business side, you know, it's on the. The marketing side or the staffing side or the, you know, something like financial. Like a lot of lawyers avoid, you know, the financial aspect of a law firm, like the plague, basically. So it's all these things that, you know, we all went to law school, you know, three or four years at law school. We didn't learn, really. I mean, I know I literally learned nothing, you know, about running a business or getting paid on time or any of these things. But, you know, you can learn. They're all just skills that you can learn. Even being a great leader is a skill. And so it's those things. They're just realizing that something. Something has to change if something is going to change. The thing that has to change is, is they have to do something different than they've done before. And so they're looking for some person or organization or some sort of structure to help them make those changes. And that's where I think Atticus comes in really well. [00:09:30] Speaker A: Excellent. Yeah. Yeah. You're frustrated. You're not happy where things are. It's not the firm you hope you have. You know, those are all good, good reasons to reach out to someone and say, hey, there's gotta be a better way. [00:09:44] Speaker B: Yeah, there's gotta be a better way. And if we just take it down to, like, the two practical things that. That might be missing is one was probably time. Like, they just don't. They feel like their time is not their own and they're not doing what they want with their time, and then the other might be money. Right. They might just not be like they're putting a lot into their firm and they're not getting out of it what they really want or shouldn't be getting out. So those are two things that probably come into play often. [00:10:11] Speaker A: 100%. Well, you mentioned in there staffing, and we were going to be talking about that a little bit. Yeah. So, yeah. Tell me your thoughts on, on staffing, what. Affirm, you know, when they should be hiring and all the things. And I'm happy. I'll contribute where I can since I have quite a bit of staff here and have seen a lot, learned a lot, what's worked, what doesn't, and still figuring it out. I think that's the other thing. Always a work in progress. [00:10:42] Speaker B: Right? [00:10:42] Speaker A: So. [00:10:43] Speaker B: Always. Yeah. So, you know, there's. I mentioned a couple things. There's sort of like these, what we call them, like the four foundations, or there's like four core areas of any business. Right. There's time and focus, management, there's staffing, there's marketing, and then there's the financial, you know, health of the firm, cash flow and profitability. Right out of those, they're all sort of, you know, there's different skills that go into sort of, you know, being good at each of those or having a successful organization that runs in each of those four areas. Out of the four, I do think that the, the staffing one is like the. It's consistently the slipperiest, let's say it's like the trickiest to get a handle on. And it's not surprising because it involves people more than the other three. And so. And people are, by sort of definition, we're, you know, we're full of humanity. So it's like, we're hard to figure out. And so we think about building a great team. It's not surprising that that becomes, like, typically for most, you know, firms and most owners, sort of the hardest thing to figure out or to get right, because people are people and people are constantly changing. It's just a really hard thing to. To get where you want it to be. And then as soon as you get it where you want it to be, something might change. Something happens, you know, some. Something happens in one of your A players lives that changes how they can, you know, be a part of your firm. So it's just like one of those things that's constantly in flux. And so it can be a high level of frustration. That being said, well, what that means is that we never have like total control over our team. You know, what our team looks like, how we're building it. We don't ever really have like complete control over that. So that's the downside. The upside is we probably have a lot more control than we give ourselves credit for. And what that means is there's a lot of strategies that we can put in place and a lot of things that we can do to basically give ourselves the best chance of, you know, hiring the right people, retaining the right people, and building a firm and a culture that people want to work at and want to stay at. So we do have control. We have some control over all of those things. We just, like in most things in life, you know, we don't have complete control. [00:12:55] Speaker A: Just like, you know, control the things that you can. If you can control all the things that you have the ability to, then you would expect a much better outcome. Less Es and flows. Right. So I'll just give it an. A quick exam. Analogy, I guess is like, yeah, people ask me about SEO and like, you know, it's a big part of our business. It's very similar to that. I can't control Google or ChatGPT or AI platforms, but you control all the things that you can and that you know will produce a good result based on the data we have. The best you can. I can't tell Google what to do. [00:13:34] Speaker B: Right? [00:13:34] Speaker A: So it's very much like people. Most important part of your company is your people, and also the most unpredictable and hardest to fully control. [00:13:43] Speaker B: But also where you get the. Also where you get the most leverage and the most sort of. I mean, it's. When you do start getting it right, it's the biggest sort of inflection point of taking the firm from, you know, here to here. Because, you know, outside of the advances in AI and technology, people are. I still think the. There's still the thing that are going to get you to a whole different level. [00:14:06] Speaker A: 100 agree. 100. [00:14:08] Speaker B: So, you know, if we start at the beginning, we start with, we think about the hiring process, right? Like, well, if you're going to build a great team, what does it take to attract you Know really great people and to retain those people. And I think, you know, we'll talk a little bit before the show, but I think, and you mentioned this, like, one of the things that you have to really get right is you have to know what your culture is as a firm. And then you have to communicate that really well, like, really early on, like as part of your job description, as part of what you're advertising to find somebody, if that's the route that you're using to find people. And so but you, you can't communicate culture and you can't communicate core values to somebody else that you're trying to bring in if you don't even know what they are. So, I mean, that's like really a starting place. And then I will say, like, out of all the, you know, look, Atticus has a book, right? Written a wonderful book for each of the four sort of core areas that I just mentioned, including one called Higher, Slow, Fire Fast, which is a great book and also just a great title. And it's a, It's a sort of a practical how to. On how to, you know, walking through, like all the step by step, here's all the best practices when it comes to hiring, you know, training, firing, all the, you know, compensation, everything. It just covers everything. And it's really great practical guide. And then there's another book that I, I have really sort of. I almost used the word, the phrase leaned into, which I, I try not to use. That sounds so cliche. But I've really, like, I've really taken a liking to this, this concept from this book called the Ideal Team Player. Have you heard of this book before? [00:15:51] Speaker A: I don't believe I have, but thanks for sharing. And the Ideal Team Player. Is that the name? [00:15:57] Speaker B: The Ideal Team Player? And the author is Patrick Lencione. He wrote another book that was probably even more popular years back, which was the Five Dysfunctions of a Team, which is. [00:16:07] Speaker A: I've definitely done that book. I've had some of my leadership team do that together as well. Yeah, great book. [00:16:13] Speaker B: It's a great book. So the Ideal Team Player is also a really great book. And one of the things that makes it so great is that he has like this, he has basically a really simple framework for what he thinks is like, here's like the secret sauce for basically building an ideal team, right? Filled up with ideal team players and one of the. All the best books, right? All the best frameworks are like very simple, like very easy to remember. So this one that falls into that category. So Basically, the framework, as he says, there's these three virtues. And the three virtues are humble, hungry, and smart. But the smart is like people smart. So humble, like somebody that you're looking for, someone who has a level of humility. You know, some. Not an incredible sort of monstrous ego. You know, they're willing to work with other people. They're willing to work for the greater good. And it's not just all about them. It's not just about, you know, sort of their glory or something like that or what they're focused on. They're looking at. They're able to look at the bigger picture. So they have a. They have a level of humility. And then the second virtue is hungry. Hungry is like just what it sounds like. You know, it's like this appetite for, you know, going above and beyond, like the bare minimum. Like, they're willing to, you know, stay a little bit late on a Tuesday after. After five or something like that. They're willing to. They, you know, proactively see that somebody needs assistance to meet a deadline. And they say, what can I do to help you out on this? Even though it's outside the scope of, like, their typical, you know, position. So that's hungry. And sometimes we'll talk a little bit more about that. But the third one is smart. Not like intelligent smart. It's like people smart, you know, emotional intelligence. Like somebody's ability to understand, like, what they say. How is it going to land with the person that they're saying it to? It's somebody's level of, you know, can you be empathetic? Can you care about sort of what other people are feeling and thinking? And if you think about it, usually when I. I'll ask you this question. So usually when I am sort of talking about this concept with somebody and I'm going through the first. Going through those three virtues for the very first time. And they're an owner, which. All the people I work with are mostly owners, except for the teams that I work with as part of those firms. But, you know, when I first talk about it, they can think of their head like people that have been in their firm in the past. They can pretty quickly identify, like, why that person didn't work out, like whether they left on their own ignition or whether they were. Had to be let go. It's pretty quickly that can be placed in one or more of their categories. Oh, yeah, you know, Joe Smith from two years ago that now I see it like I can place them exactly in this framework. He was. He was really humble, really, really nice guy. Really got other people, but, man, he was like a total slacker. Like, he just didn't really seem to care about, like, sort of getting things done. And so, you know, he probably hung around longer than normal because he was very likable and he was very humble, like, picking up. He didn't do his, you know, he didn't do his bit, basically. So usually when I talk about this, I don't know if that's. Also, I'll ask you, like, I'm assuming you've probably had to let people go in the past and that sort of thing. [00:19:22] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:19:23] Speaker B: And you don't have to go into details, but can you sort of, like, look at those past experiences and place people on a particular, you know, virtue that maybe was deficient? [00:19:32] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. I mean, I've been in business for 20 years. [00:19:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:36] Speaker A: We have over 60 people full time right now, so definitely had my fair share, I think. Yeah. Just looking back, one. One was we had a couple years ago where super talented new things that we kind of one of those roles where it's like, I know more than everybody. That's why we're hiring them to bring them in for expertise and hungry, driven, very smart. Not maybe not the emotional people smart, but the humble part. Right. So not willing to tell us or create SOPs, you know, and. And to document what he's doing so that we can, as a team, learn and grow and not have one person that knows this one skill. And so that was a quick end there as far as his not, you know, his ability to say, hey, I'm not sharing what I know. And that was just. That was the end of that pretty much. But I think one tip too off of that would be something we've. We've done here. And I can't remember what book this was in, but is it's either a hell yes. And this is. With hiring, it's either a hell yes or it's a no. [00:20:51] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:20:51] Speaker A: And I don't know how many times that we've had a couple managers going, yeah, look, I really like this person. We need this person. We're kind of struggling over here. We need this person. And then you go, is it a hell yes? And they go, and if they even like, breathe in, like they're missing the hell part. [00:21:10] Speaker B: If you take a breath. Yeah. Then. [00:21:12] Speaker A: Then you're like, what? What is it? And they're like, well, you know, there's this, this one thing that I'm concerned about. And it's like, well, what's. What's our rule here? And they're like, hell yes or not. So, yeah, I know they just. They need the help, but they agree at the same time. But yeah, you know that. And that can be hard if you're struggling. You're like, I need an associate, I need an attorney. I need. It's hard to turn down to someone that's almost perfect, but if you can live by that, it's going to help you tremendously. [00:21:42] Speaker B: A great tip, though. I will say I will never look for perfect. Just look for ideal. Right. Not perfection. Sure. But somebody who has ideal and is a hell yes. Like you said, which I love, that I've had before. [00:21:55] Speaker A: And I, you know, I. I guess I'll say this, the cultural fit part, that gut check. If you're just. If I say, hey, I just. Something's off about Daniel, you know, I. I can't place it. We're not hiring them because I don't know what it is. We might not know what it is, but that's just. It's just something that can't work. It's. So it's not the skills or, you know, I'd rather you not have the skill. Like, it's gotta be. We like them. Great person, you know, works well with our, our team, our culture. We can teach them some stuff, you know. [00:22:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think the gut. I mean, you know, I think the gut check sort of comes from your own people smart. Sort of. You're. You have a level of being people smart and you can read people and see you. You got to go with your gut sometimes. I think that's very true. [00:22:42] Speaker A: Another great book is Emotional Intelligence. We just did that as a. We do book clubs. Yeah. And so we just did Emotional Intelligence. It's not the. It's got some, you know, interesting kind of over the top stories in it, but. [00:22:56] Speaker B: Okay. [00:22:57] Speaker A: A great book to have a better understanding of yourself, I think. Self awareness. [00:23:02] Speaker B: Well, there's a. I don't know if it's a site. There's a book called Emotional Intelligence 2.0. It might be the same authors, I guess, but if it's similar to the one you're talking about, it's. It's incredibly. They have a lot of practical, like for somebody who wants to up their emotional intelligence, it's like they're super practical. Sort of you can do these 20 things like now and, you know, sort of raise your level of self awareness and be more emotional intelligent or. [00:23:27] Speaker A: Yeah. And for those that maybe are like, I Don't even understand it or know what it is. [00:23:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:23:32] Speaker A: It breaks all that down. I think awareness is the hardest part because you can read the book, set it down, but when you come into contact with the person and it's, say, a heated debate or whatever, the hardest part is becoming like, wait a minute, let me step back. I know what I'm in and I know how I act and I know how to, you know, kind of change what I'm about to do. I think that's the harder part for people to get. If you, you have to practice, you have to, you know, probably turn back to it. Often there's another one by a lawyer. Your next conversation. [00:24:09] Speaker B: Okay, I haven't heard that one. [00:24:10] Speaker A: And that's by man. I can't think of his name for some reason. Sorry. If you're listening, but he's a lawyer. He's got a big TikTok following. Okay, and your next conversation. But he uses a lot of trial situations. Yeah. In the book, it's like a version of emotional intelligence, but he kind of breaks down different ways. [00:24:32] Speaker B: Okay. [00:24:34] Speaker A: To, to kind of handle it and, and, and take back. But his is like, take a breath, you know, take that minute breath, like, you know. [00:24:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:44] Speaker A: Collect your thoughts. [00:24:46] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, interesting. With the humble, hungry and people smart, out of the three, people smart is probably the easiest to help coach somebody to improve on. You know, hungry is probably the hardest. If somebody's already on your team and they don't have hunger, maybe you can help them with that. But it's going to be pretty. That's a hard road to help somebody with. And then humility is probably somewhere in between. But if we, if you buy into the humble, hungry and people smart sort of ethos, that becomes like, to me, that's like the foundation. Look for that first before anything else. And then obviously connection with your core values and the cult, what you've created is really important. But if you buy into, you know, humble hungry people smart, that sort of is a part of your core value in a way. But then everything else goes on top of that, you know, experience, skill set, resume, all the, all the practical things that you have to check and make sure that they check those boxes too. But if somebody checks all the boxes and they're not humble, I just, I haven't over the years seen that work out well for any owner. It just doesn't work. Or if somebody checks all the boxes, but they're not people smart. Yeah. It's going to be a very frustrating experience for, for you and the rest of your team to deal with that person. So hiring for humble, hungry and people smart is like a foundational level. I think is just a really good strategy. [00:26:03] Speaker A: I love that. I think it is a great strategy and simplifies it to your point. Like it does. [00:26:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:26:10] Speaker A: It's like, okay, I don't have to like get what's all the things I gotta do. Like it just basic. These three things that we all understand. I, I would hope everyone understands. [00:26:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. [00:26:20] Speaker A: You know, as a starting point and say, hey, is this a good fit? Um, so. [00:26:25] Speaker B: And I'll say the real fascinating thing when you get further into it is you. If it becomes a part of your culture, then your team is looking there. Your team will start identifying people that are there that are not fitting. Having like deficient in those virtues or you can use, your team can help sort of screen, you know, potential candidates for those things as early as possible. So it just becomes, becomes really helpful sort of framework to use. [00:26:52] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I, I think it's great to, to have something like that to live by and, and you know, as you grow again. I have a dozen plus managers they're hiring and so yeah, if you don't have a good culture that spreads throughout right. Then they're, they're making decisions, hiring people based on maybe needs or stress or like hey, we're, we're slammed. And then you start to have, you know, yeah, terrorists, if you will come into the organization that absolutely disrupt things and mess up the culture. And culture is everything. It's your brand, it's your marketing, it's everything in my opinion. And you have to protect it. And you want to have people on your team that go, hey, I don't want to work with that person. You know, I don't want them coming into to what I've helped create. And then, and when I say that they have mental ownership of your company, maybe not equity ownership, they have mental ownership. Meaning I love where I'm at and I want to protect this. So I'm not letting someone come in or if someone does come in, they're going to call them out. It's at a, at some point. [00:28:04] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. [00:28:05] Speaker A: That's what you want. [00:28:06] Speaker B: But as an owner, it's, you know, the ultimate responsibility or the people that you put in leadership positions to make sure that the people that don't fit don't stay too long because eventually the repercussions are those, those ideal team players, those A level players eventually will self select out. Right. If you Allow that to go on for too long. So you have to be very careful. [00:28:27] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, imagine if you're on a team or other coaches at Atticus and there was ones that just did the bare minimum, kind of slacked off, didn't take that many appointments. At some point you might not want to be associated with a company that has a lot of those kinds of people. [00:28:46] Speaker B: Right, yeah. You want everybody at a high level. Yeah, yeah. [00:28:49] Speaker A: I'm over here, you know, doing what I, you know, all this work and put my heart into this, but no one else is. So, you know, maybe I should look for somewhere else to go. 100. That'll happen. [00:29:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:02] Speaker A: Silently, unfortunately, most of the time, usually. [00:29:05] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:29:06] Speaker A: So. And sometimes, you know, that's the other thing you said, like hire slow, fire, fast. Sometimes you have to fire someone and make sure the other people or the managers understand why, you know. [00:29:21] Speaker B: Right, yeah. [00:29:23] Speaker A: Because they might not have, you know, they might not have the intelligence yet to make that call themselves. And so sometimes you have to uncover it and say, hey, you keep mentioning this or saying this, what's really going on? And like, well, this one person is. And then you kind of find out a bunch more. And then what about the people around that person? And it's like, okay, we're going to get rid of them. Here's why we got to do it. And then, you know, they have to understand that because they might not have fired someone before. You know, we have a lot of younger managers in. [00:29:57] Speaker B: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and you, you touched on this earlier and then you just mentioned again too, and it's really, it's a really, really, really crucial point and sort of the first part of that book, which is the higher slow. But you mentioned, I think you use the word duress. Like if you're somebody's hiring under duress or they're really in a crunch or they're really short staffed or, you know, they really feel like their team is over capacity. Everyone's just like bursting at the seams. Guess what? You know, if you're in that position, it becomes incredibly difficult to slow down. Think about, you know, frameworks like humble hungry and people smart. You know, it becomes difficult to do proper, you know, background checks, reference checks. Have them take a boat, like a behavioral assessment, like the disc assessment, which is the one we use, but there's a lot out there. Have them do all these things that you should be doing to make sure that they're a good fit. Have an onboarding plan, you know, have like all these Things in place. That all sounds great. But guess what? If you are just totally under duress and you really need a warm body in that seat like yesterday, it just is very. I mean, I get it. It's very difficult to operate in a sort of slow and methodical, like, you know, intentional manner when it comes to hiring. If you are in that position, sometimes you might, as a leader, find yourself in that position, no matter. Despite all the things that you've done to avoid it. Though I will say, more often than not, owners find themselves in that position because they simply waited too long to make the decision to make that next hire. And so that could be an interesting thing to chat about a little bit because, you know, sort of like, what's the theory about, you know, when do. When should we be hiring? Like, what's, how do we determine? Like, you know, especially if it's a newer firm or a newer owner, like, making that first hire especially is very scary. But even making the fifth hire or the 20th higher or the 100th higher, it's like, how do you make that determination? [00:31:59] Speaker A: I'll add a note before you dive into that, because I think that's a very great question. I think a lot of folks aren't sure when to do it and, and know when they're ready for it. But so, but I'll just add, you know, back to. Yeah, if someone's in that spot where you're freaking out, you know, and again, whatever size you are, you can still have someone leave and, and have the situation. But if you've done the taking the time to put some systems in place to control as much as you can, to have some kind of simple framework or whatever. And again, you have a good culture. You mentioned core values. You know what you stand for. Everyone in the company knows that. And, you know, you start to kind of create this culture that, that everyone wants, you most likely probably have a, an easier time hiring because people want to work there. The friends, the friends of the people that work for you are like, hey, you need to come over here. This is awesome. You have a bench of people potentially, hey, let me know when you're hiring. I'm ready. I'm going to leave this firm and come to you. That's the whole point of taking the time as early on as possible to create these things so that you're not freaking out. Because we know people all over the place that would love to be here when we have a position open, making it much easier to hire. So anyway, just. I'll throw that out There. [00:33:18] Speaker B: It's actually a really, really. It's a great point, Kevin. I think that. And I work with a lot of law firms every day. And I will say it's very. It's a rare firm. I have a handful, but it's very. It's pretty rare. It's definitely sort of the minority of firms that they do. They very rarely have to actively go out and like, put an ad on. Indeed. Or LinkedIn. Like, they. They have, like you said, they have a bench. People are wanting to work for them. Most of their positions are filled even before they're really even sort of posted because they're having conversations with people. They're meeting people for lunch. Their team, their paralegals, their team are out there talking about how great it is to work for this firm. And so that's all culture. That's all team building. And it pays big, big dividends. [00:34:05] Speaker A: 100%. 100%. And again, it reflects in your marketing and reflects in your customer or clients experience with your firm. If everyone there's this is awesome and happy place to be, then it all comes through. It. It goes through everything. It permeates through everything. So, you know, it's just like a good realtor that has a big network. [00:34:27] Speaker B: True. Yeah. [00:34:27] Speaker A: You list your house, you're like, bam, I got an offer the first day, full ask. You know, that could be the property. In this case, the firm. Right. The firm shows well, it looks well, it's in a great location, it sells itself. It's easy. Or you might have a realtor that has a great network. Right. And that just boom, hey, we're hiring over here. And people are jumping on to try to get in there. So just put that out there to say you can't be there overnight. But that's why we work on these things early as possible. And they're important. [00:34:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. That does take time. What's that? [00:35:03] Speaker A: So if I'm a solo right now, and I'm. I just started and I'm getting busy, some referrals coming in, you know, when do I know I'm ready to hire? You know, what is. What does. What does that look like? [00:35:15] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, well, whether someone's a solo or, you know, they're much bigger than that. Either way, I think that the. So I'll say something that might sound kind of silly and it's. I mean, it is anecdotal, but I have been, you know, I've been coaching for 11 years, and I've worked with and worked with a lot of law firms. And I can, I think probably has only happened maybe two times that I've had seen a firm hire too quickly. Like I've seen. This is very distinct from like hiring too quickly in the sense that they hired the wrong person. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about like they, they actually hire for like a position or filled a role that didn't need to be filled at all. And then they were sort of extra above capacity and wasn't, didn't work out very well. That is so, so rare. So, so like the really simple answer is hire before you think you need to hire, right? So it's like what we're talking about because if you wait until like the perfect moment, whatever that is, and we could talk about like how to figure out what the perfect moment is, but if you wait until the perfect moment, almost for sure you've waited too long, which means now you are hiring under some level of sort of duress of speed and trying to fill that thing because you're at capacity, at or over capacity. So you know, the general rule of thumb is if you. I'm just, I know this is very sort of, it's not a lot of nuance here, but it's like if you think you need to hire, you probably do need to hire. So I'll just say that. And again, this is based on 11 years of just hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of conversations and hundreds and hundreds of hires. And maybe definitely at least once that comes to my mind, maybe twice that a firm that I've seen personally just hired a little too quickly. And even then, guess what? It wasn't like some, it wasn't a major disaster. It didn't cast a firm into financial ruin. I mean, nothing really super negative came out of it. But so more often than not firms will hire perfectly on time, which is rare or slightly or grossly too late. So, but the rule of thumb is sort of like the concept of this idea that capacity drives revenue. And you've probably heard this before, at least in some form or fashion. But it's like if we the temptation, especially for a solo, but really for any even bigger firms, you know, the temptation is that we want to. Because what's the fear? The fear is that we hire somebody, whether they're a producer or a non producer, it doesn't matter, but we're going to hire somebody and the fear is that we're not going to be able to feed them. Like we don't have enough money to pay the, for that person. On payroll. And we can't justify making that higher. We can't justify the cost. And so the fear is that. And so the, the answer to that is, well, we'll just wait until we have the revenue, right? Wait till the revenue comes in. Okay, now all the revenue is sitting here in the bank, right? So now we can go out and find this person and hire them. That's. That would be revenue driving capacity. And that just. It sounds like. It sounds very safe and really good on paper, but it rarely ever works because what happens is you get into like this vicious cycle or you get into very bad hiring practice. It would drive, like very bad hiring practices. Hiring very quickly, hiring the wrong people. So the better, you know, sort of approach is thinking revenue drives or capacity drives revenue. So you focus on getting the right capacity in place. People. There's different types of capacity, but we're talking about people. The other main types of capacity are technology, which is becoming more important than ever now, and space still, you know, like actual physical space is a form of capacity unless it's a completely virtual firm. But, but people, people capacity, I think, is still the, the most crucial type of capacity. And so we're talking about capacity drives. Revenue means we want to fill. We want to make sure that we always have, like there's a cushion, right? Like we have enough. People are never sort of at a hundred percent capacity or beyond before we start looking to create more capacity. So I think that's sort of the. It's sort of the general rule of thumb is I. Look, it's very easy for me to talk about it. And it sounds like an interesting theory, maybe to people listening, but I know from, because I talk to lawyers all day long, I know from experience that there's a ton of fear, especially the younger a firm is. There is a lot of fear in making those hires before you feel like you are really ready to, you know, have that person there, have that additional payroll on, you know, on your. On your budget. But in some sense, and I don't want to get too off track, but in some sense, if the thing that you're trying to do to grow doesn't cause you some trepidation and overcoming of some fear, then it's probably not really a big enough thing to actually grow. So I think that, you know, in some sense, in order to grow, you do have to do things that sort of take like this, like overcoming the fear, doing something whether you know it's going to work out or not. And I think the hiring process is one of Those, like when to hire falls into that category. [00:40:30] Speaker A: No, I love it. You know, because you can take your time, follow the right processes, hire slow. [00:40:34] Speaker B: Right. [00:40:34] Speaker A: Everyone recommends and it's proven. [00:40:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:38] Speaker A: So, yeah, if you're hiring fast, the end of, you know, oh, we got the money now we're too busy now we have to hire. You're skipping all those things. And I think the main, the main point of this episode is not to skip the any of those things. Like, your culture is important, your core values are important. You know, all these things take some time and thought and energy and they work out for firms for a good reason. But it's like investing, you know, like what? You know, say we're me and you are going to invest in a property right now, going to get a piece of real estate. You take your time, you fill, you find what makes sense. You do your research and you say, I think this is going to be the best purchase and it's an investment. Right. So it's a risk. You're putting money into it. You've done the research, you took your time. And so the same type of thing, you're investing in a future outcome. So you, it could be like an assistant. [00:41:33] Speaker B: Right? [00:41:34] Speaker A: Hey, I'm sitting all day doing the work, head down. I can't market, I can't do social media, I can't get out and do referrals. I can't network. Cool. Hire that person. And then that's what you're going to go do to drive more revenue. So, yeah, and so that. That'll pay for itself potentially. Right. So whatever the position is, to your point, I think if you treat it that way, I've done the research, I've done the thought, I've looked at the finances. We can do this. Let's do this. Now. Here's the potential payoff of that. You should have some sense at least. Why are we making this higher and what's, what's the payoff? [00:42:12] Speaker B: A hundred percent. Yes. Yeah. And I'm not saying to just, you know, go hire 10 people tomorrow. That's a lot more to the discussion. But what I see on a regular basis is sort of a hesitation too higher because of this fear of doing it too quickly, where usually it's. The risk is actually much greater on the other side of going like waiting too long to make that hiring decision. But there's risks on both sides. Right. But I think the risk is a lot less that you. Because what happens is like a vicious. I mean, if, you know, especially a smaller firm, like, if the owner waits too long to make a hire. If they're, wait, like, let's take an example. Like, you have one owner and they look at tire. Their first attorney, let's say, like bring in their first associate, their first attorney. And they, in their mind, they say, well, if I get to, if I can just get the revenue to X number, whatever it is, like, then I can make that higher. But what happens is they, they do the marketing, they do whatever they have to do to sort of bring the work in, right? But because they're the only ones, they're the only one that can do a percentage that work because they're the only attorney. They turn around and they're doing the work. They're doing the work. And then they look up and they say, oh, I can't hire now. The revenues, you know, it's not there, right? Because their marketing went down in the meantime and now they got to shift back. It's like this vicious cycle. So there's never going to be like the perfect time. So there's. It, it's a little bit. There's risk regardless. But again, I just don't, I just don't see all these stories of, you know, I'll ask you, have you heard from other, you know, owners that say regularly, like, you know, I just, I shouldn't have hired for that role at all. Which is again, very different than I hired the wrong person or I shouldn't have brought this person on board. But I very rarely hear I hired too early to fill a position that I thought I needed. [00:44:05] Speaker A: Yeah, no, very, very rarely. But it's always, always someone looking for someone or needing a position or. [00:44:12] Speaker B: Yes, it's actually the opposite. [00:44:14] Speaker A: Ideal candidate or whatever. When I first started my business, I had a gentleman, older gentleman, that owned a financial planning company and I knew him through a networking group. And I had mentioned something about looking for an office space first office space, you know, and I didn't have a whole ton to go get, like my own building or something like that. And he's like, hey, talk to me after I got some office space and financial. He had owned a financial planning company before, sold one, went back on his own again and had this massive, like class A building space with no one in it. And I'm like, where's everybody at? He's like, oh, well, I just, I'm just starting again. I'm going to grow scale so I get a better deal on a lease on the space this size and I'll grow into it over about three years in the meantime, you can have an office, commerce room access, kitchen access, whatever you want. 500 bucks a month. I'm like, all right, you know, so great. And by the time I left that space, about a year so later was half full. But again, he, he, he knew he was going to need the space. Got a better deal by signing a lease early on, a bigger space, so. And he sure enough grew into that, blew it out, sold it, Sold that firm too. [00:45:36] Speaker B: I mean, it's a, it's actually a perfect example. It's not under the people category, but it's under the physical space category. So that was one. So if we think about. Yeah, he, he was truly embracing the capacity drives, you know, growth or revenue strategy, which is perfect. [00:45:51] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think the main thing it comes back to is time to plan ahead. Right. He didn't just go, he didn't randomly go, let me lease a 20,000 square foot building, you know, with no thought behind it. [00:46:03] Speaker B: No, no. He calculated all the, the possibilities and, [00:46:07] Speaker A: you know, and this, this gentleman too. Another thing is he had multiple coaches and I was like 20 some years old, and I'm like, hey, who's, who's that person? Oh, that was one of my coaches. I was like, oh, you got. I thought you had a different coach. Well, I do, but that's for this and this. He's like, sometimes, you know, you have to change them up. I learned a lot from that guy. [00:46:28] Speaker B: Yeah, sounds like a great guy. [00:46:30] Speaker A: It might not. It didn't all soak in at that time. You know, later on I'm like, oh, yeah, that, that was very smart. But that's what coaches bring to you too, right? So, yeah, that's the idea, Daniel, is that, you know, having that other person to talk to that's been there, talk to other hundreds of firms, seen the situations. Like that's what you're getting in an incident versus trying to figure it out in a. A silo. [00:46:57] Speaker B: Right. Yeah, I will. I mean, I will say if, if you're. Somebody's listening and they don't have. They feel like they're sort of siloed and they don't have anybody to talk to about their business, like find something, whether it's Atticus or some other organization or plug into something besides like maybe a listserv, but something like more, you know, personal and like connect or listen to great podcasts like this and like feel even. Even listening to podcasts about these sorts of things, you know, obviously it like you, it helps connect you and you feel like more part of A community, which I think is really important. You know, law firm owners don't. It's not like they have organically, like, people to talk to about what's happening with their firm. I mean, at some point, your significant other doesn't want to hear about it anymore. [00:47:39] Speaker A: So guarantee that for somebody else. Well, you can get blinders on. Right. You know, so I think. [00:47:45] Speaker B: Sure. [00:47:45] Speaker A: The podcast or there's. So there's a lot of great content and groups out there like Atticus. [00:47:51] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:47:51] Speaker A: That sometimes you might just hear something. You're like, oh, you know, ah, I'm dealing with that. And even think about it. Didn't even ask anybody or I thought I was the only one. So, you know. [00:48:05] Speaker B: Right. [00:48:06] Speaker A: And then. Oh, no, it's. You know, everyone else deals with the same thing. So I just opened your mind up. [00:48:12] Speaker B: Yeah. So. [00:48:14] Speaker A: Well, Daniel, I appreciate you coming on to share today more about Atticus and hiring and really just how important of a piece of your business it is. People. And don't just wing it. Right. Have a system of strategy, a framework. [00:48:33] Speaker B: Thanks for having me, Kevin. It was a real pleasure to be here. Nice to get to know you a little bit and hopefully connect with your audience. So I really appreciate the opportunity to be here. It was really fun. [00:48:45] Speaker A: Well, yeah. Again, I think it's the hardest part to figure out in a business. You started out with saying that pretty much, you know, and it's something that you got to put a lot of time, energy on, and it's so important and it will. It will be the one thing that. That drives your business and scales it 100%. [00:49:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:07] Speaker A: Not just technology, not just more marketing, not just more ads. Like, you have to get this part figured out for it all to work, [00:49:15] Speaker B: but you have to have. You have to have the capacity yourself to even, you know, think about these sort of things. Right. And that is, again, driven by, in a circular way, the capacity that you create in your firm. So [00:49:30] Speaker A: if you have a coach, you know, you. You add some. Some capacity right there and someone else that can help you. [00:49:35] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. You don't have to. Yeah, yeah, that's true. You don't have to, you know, sort of and, like, reinvent the wheel. Right. So to speak, or figure out everything on your own or even dig through, you know, the Internet and try to see what works or what doesn't work. So. Yeah, that. And that is a good point. Yeah. [00:49:50] Speaker A: Please connect with Daniel. And what's the best way for folks to connect with you personally? [00:49:56] Speaker B: The easiest way without. I mean, is on LinkedIn. So I don't I'm on LinkedIn pretty often. Daniel Struna S T R U N A It's a pretty I think I'm the only one on there with that last name and first name. So you can connect with me on there. Happy to connect. If you want to check out Atticus, it would be atticus advantage.com and yeah, we'd love to connect with you with you Do a if you go that route, you just do like a free sort of discovery call, sort of practice call and learn a little bit more about us so we can learn about you. But happy to connect with you individually on LinkedIn. [00:50:26] Speaker A: Everyone, thank you so much for tuning in. Hiring is always a big topic. People culture in various ways. But I love what Daniel had to share here today. The three the three step. It was what humble, hungry and smart people. [00:50:39] Speaker B: Smart. Yeah. [00:50:40] Speaker A: And we we mentioned a couple books in in this episode too, so go check any of those out. I think those are they're all great books. And we'll see you soon on the next episode. Daniel, thank you.