Harnessing Data and People for Law Firm Growth

[00:00:00] Speaker A: What I'll say to the other managing partners out there, what I've learned through this experience is the importance of data. Everything in this world, this mass total world, is data and metrics driven. Now I also realize everything else should also be data driven. [00:00:32] Speaker B: Most firms survive. The best ones scale. Welcome to the Managing Partners podcast, where law firm leaders learn to think bigger. I'm Kevin. Daisy. Let's jump in. Well, hello there, everyone. Welcome and thanks again for listening to the Managing Partners podcast. I'm excited to have you here today. And I have a special guest, someone that has been on the show before. Actually, I looked back and it was February of 2021. So just over five years ago. [00:01:04] Speaker A: Five years. [00:01:06] Speaker B: Five years. [00:01:06] Speaker A: Wow. [00:01:07] Speaker B: Jeff Kimmel, welcome back to the show. [00:01:09] Speaker A: Thank you. Good to be back. [00:01:12] Speaker B: So when I first, I think talked to Jeff over five years ago, I remember him saying, hey, I'm just coming into the managing partner role. And I said, yeah, but I'm sure you have plenty to share as you're going into that new role. And he did just that. So since then, five years later, and we look younger today, better looking, but I'm sure a lot's happened in five years. So I wanted to have Jeff come back on the show. He's a repeat guest and share what the last five years have been like. They've had a lot of changes there and just excited to kind of dive in. Except for some others out there listening that manager in firms, start driven firms. Maybe we're just managing, you know, playing the role of managing partner at a existing firm. Sure, we can learn a lot from Jeff here today and excited to dive into it. So, Jeff, you would introduce yourself where you're located and your firm and what you all specialize in. [00:02:11] Speaker A: Yeah, well, most of it's the same in the last five years. I'm in the same place in the same firm with most of the same people. We do personal injury medical malpractice. That's our core business. And what's changed since 21 is that we've now introduced mass torts, which is a new area, a new stream of income for us. And I'm happy to talk about that. I will say that we are personal injury medical malpractice trending towards more medical malpractice. That area of our practice has grown every year. Higher percentage of the caseload, higher percentage of the income. And it's because I think in that area, not many people do it. You know, there's an opportunity for us. We're pretty good at it. We've been doing it a long time and we have a lot of mid mal cases and most of the cases that we get do come from actually other personal injury lawyers who don't do medical malpractice because it's very time consuming, it's very expensive, it's a very labor intensive and the cases are long, you know, they, they take a longer time. So we've grown in that sense. Like I said, I've grown a lot because I've learned a lot. Since 2021, I was sort of new to the managing partner game. I will say though that podcasts like yours, Kevin, have, have helped me, yours in particular. I mean the content that you put out for lawyers, for managing partners in particular is, is fantastic. It's fantastic. I, I actually find myself looking forward to your next podcast. [00:03:43] Speaker B: Well, I appreciate that, I appreciate that very much. [00:03:47] Speaker A: My pleasure, my pleasure. But like I, I, I was in 21 just learning that I really didn't know much about managing a firm because it wasn't something that I was taught in law school. It wasn't something that I knew how to do. I was a trial attorney who tried cases. I had a caseload and, and I knew how to manage clients, I knew how to try a case, knew nothing about running a business, about running this business, about managing people, about dealing with problems, about dealing with other people's problems. And you know, hiring people and managing people, all extremely important skills. And you know, you need to know how to do that. And if you can't, you got to learn how to do it. And if that's a challenge, then you got to hire people who can help you do it. And so. [00:04:36] Speaker B: Amen. [00:04:37] Speaker A: So, so since, since 2021, I can say that the best thing I've done to improve my skills as a managing partner was to hire people who could help me do it and delegate those responsibilities so I can do what I do best and I get other people help manage the firm in their skill set. And we did hire a director of operations who came in with experience in running a business, in managing a business, in HR issues and all the things that I sort of was skating by. And you know, I like to be the nice guy. I like for people to come into my office, ask me if there's something, I say, sure, you know, go ahead, you could, you could buy that, you could do that. You want this? You got it. And now, you know, with, with this person in this position, it becomes something that is more of a, you know, a decision that we all make together. We There's a lot of input and so it really works. And she's been terrific. So I would say the first thing, if you're going to do this, to delegate to get people in, in positions where you're, I guess, deficient or, you know, it's not your skill set to, to do those things, find people to do them and, and accept the help and take the help that, that they're giving you. [00:06:01] Speaker B: 100%. Yeah. So you, you've come a long way, you've been in this position for a while, and you quickly realize there's better, there's people that are better at this or these areas than me. I think that's one of the biggest lessons I have in Director of Operations and same title, actually, and, and various other people in different roles. And that's how you grow. And you know, y' all have grown. You've added new practice areas. And you can't just be the managing partner or the owner and do everything. It's just not going to work. And so once you get past that and you bring on good people that fit the culture and want to be there, they can go a thousand miles faster than you can at what they do. So just get out of the way. Let them do their thing. They'll set boundaries too. Like, you know, you're. I'm a yes guy too. You know, I'll take someone to my calendar, I'll meet with people, I'll do whatever. And sometimes that's a problem. And we need those kinds of folks in our life. [00:07:09] Speaker A: Yes, yes. [00:07:10] Speaker B: To balance it out. [00:07:12] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. [00:07:14] Speaker B: So you're located in New York. So on the personal injury side, medical mal. That's, that's New York based. [00:07:21] Speaker A: Yes, it's. And then. [00:07:23] Speaker B: And mass towards. Mass towards obviously anywhere. [00:07:26] Speaker A: So, yeah, so that's, that's taken us to many different new directions and it's, it's an interesting genesis for the, for me, for the mass torts, because I did think about it in the beginning, probably around when the time we spoke just before COVID I had gone to some mass torts made perfect. It's, it's a, it's a seminar that they have where they. [00:07:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:46] Speaker A: Meet. [00:07:46] Speaker B: Great, great. Yeah, great event. [00:07:49] Speaker A: And I did attend that, I think like a 2018, 2019, something like that. And I sort of didn't understand it. I wasn't sure what it was. And I went there thinking, oh, okay, maybe we could do mass torts. And, and you know, we can get involved somehow. My, my impression at that time was if we're going to get involved, maybe we'll start trying mass tort cases. And that really is not the case. You know, we weren't set up to be a mass toward, you know, leadership firm, but I really didn't understand the ins and outs and I was more confused than anything during that visit. And I left thinking, I don't think this is for me. Then recently, you know, a few years ago, we went again because I'm like, let me give this another shot. Things happened and I learned some things. I said maybe I wasn't looking at this the right way. And I realized that there is an opportunity to potentially bring a new stream of income into the firm with this mass torch as, not as a leadership firm trying cases, but as someone who can generate leads, bring in clients who need a lawyer to help them because they've suffered an injury, which is what I do, but on a larger scale with different kinds of products. And now it's social media, digital products and partner have my firm partner with the firms that are in the weeds and in the trenches with these cases and essentially provide my clients with two attorneys with a team of litigators to help them through the process. And it's a way for me to bring these clients in, get them the help they need. And then I'm not really utilizing the assets of my firm, meaning the attorneys and the staff. We're not adding to their caseload, we're not adding to their workload. It's. It's a whole separate department and it's, it's early, so these cases take time. So I haven't made much money with it, but we've gotten a lot of cases and, and they're sitting there and, and they're going to make money at some point in the future. But what, what this has led to was me really starting a whole new department, multiple departments within the firm. And that, that's been my biggest accomplishment, I think, to date as managing partner is bringing in new people. And, and it's interesting because I love it. These, the people I brought on are intake people and marketing people in house. And the first. My marketing in house person is fantastic. I mean, they're all fantastic. But, you know, she had experience and she knows SEO and, but you know, she's one person, but she's really doing the job of many. And, and she's doing a great job. And, and we brought in, in addition, intake. Now we had choices of going out of the firm, you know, outside or inside, and we brought in an intake person to support this and she's terrific as well. And so they work together. They're sort of like their own unit. And we grew to the point where we now have a second intake person. [00:10:42] Speaker B: I love it. [00:10:43] Speaker A: Yeah. And so it's. It's been sort of where I've been spending most of my time and attention, maybe to the detriment of everything else. I'm probably not working with everybody else as much as I used to, but it's because we're. We're getting this off the ground. The future has a balance, but right now we're really starting from the ground up, and it's where I'm spending most of my time. And it's really opened my eyes to managing and what I'll say to the other managing partners out there, what I've learned through this experience is the importance of data. Everything in that, in this, this world, this mass door world, is data and metrics driven. And then once I understood that, now I also realize that everything else should also be data driven. I finally get the numbers and I'm learning all these things about marketing, obviously, that, you know, but also about leads and whatnot, but. But more so about the financials of my business and what's bringing in money and what metrics are important and what data points really tell me what to do. Because, Kevin, honestly, what I've been working on from the time I spoke with you five years ago up until recently is intuition. Right. You know, it's sort of like, you know, when we meet together, we say, what's this case worth? Okay, Nobody knows what a case is worth. You know, he asked 10 people, what's the case worth? It. And I was sort of running the firm the same way. It's like, well, we're making money, we're bringing in cases, we're getting good results. People are happy. We must be doing great, right? I don't know. Now I look back, I'm like, I don't know, maybe we could have done a lot better. Because now I'm putting together the data and the metrics and the reports and the dashboard and these points, and this information is really helping me enormously make decisions now. [00:12:40] Speaker B: 100%. [00:12:41] Speaker A: Now I have a reason to say we got to change this. I have a reason to say, we got to do this now or we got to stop doing this. Are we going to do more of this? And I feel so much better and more comfortable making decisions, having data and statistics behind me. And I swear I keep thinking about Moneyball. The. The movie. [00:13:02] Speaker B: The movie, yeah. [00:13:04] Speaker A: And I, I Saw that movie years ago. I'm, I'm probably dating myself. But it was all about how, you know, data and metrics changed baseball. And, you know, just the, the, some person who, who knew numbers and data, you know, with the Oakland A's, said, hey, this guy's better for us than this other guy. Even though the, the numbers may not make, or it may not make sense to the people based on these people's, based on the players personalities or their history or whatever. Yeah, numbers are what mattered. And, and what, what that whole movie was about is, you know, even it was the worst team in baseball. Once they got the data right and they drafted and put people in the positions based on their numbers and their stats and what they're most likely probably going to do, it worked. And I'm seeing it happen in my business. It happens. [00:13:49] Speaker B: It's great movie to watch, by the way, if you own a business. Oh yeah, let me, let me, you know, hit a couple things there. So once. One theme for, for Jeff here is his success is hiring amazing people. You know, he mentioned his marketing person, his intake person. He's just brought on great people. So when you find good people, they, they will make magic happen and they'll take care of you and your business. So super important to delegate. But you can just find good people, like people don't work for you if you have a crappy company or you're a bad boss, or you don't give them the room to, to do what they need to do. So, so that's just super important. And then another thing I say all the time, and this is, is so many people that I know that talk about this, financial people, CFOs, whatever, is, know your numbers. And that's not just your finances, but your leads, the quality, how many, where they're coming from. And then, you know, intake conversions, and then of course, your financials. Like we, we tweak our P and L every single month and there's always changes that we're making and there's money bleed here and there and everywhere. You can always optimize, you know, so I love the fact that, you know, I'm not a numbers guy either, but I'm, I'm more excited about numbers the more I understand them. [00:15:20] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, that's what I'm seeing. That's what I'm, I feel better about a decision when there's numbers supporting it behind it. No one can argue with me. Right. I have, I have evidence. I'm a lawyer. I, I have numbers. You Know, and, and that's what's great. And let me, let me also say everything's sort of happening at the right time, which is how it works, but it's also happening coincidentally, which maybe not, but we are in the process of transitioning and migrating from a prior case management system to a newer one. Right. So we were in one that was more server based and it wasn't cloud based and they're no longer supporting it and all that. So we were forced to change. And now we have. This is the opportunity that we have to, to make our system work so much better for us. And it's been a challenge from the start to get the people in the office who use the system to put the information in the same boxes. Right. Cause we have different teams. You know, the way we work, we have attorney leading the team and they have support staff helping the attorney. And every attorney is different. And not every attorney started with us and is still with us. Right. So they've come from other places. They have their own way of doing things, they have habits, they have, you know, their own processes. And, and if my way of managing has always been I want people, I want to utilize their assets and the stuff that they don't do, I don't want them to really do that. I, you know, I want to put them in places where they're comfortable, where they're talented and where they could be productive. And, you know, so if someone's, you know, a great trial attorney and they're not good at doing paper and doing motions, I'm not going to make them do motions. You know, like, that's just the easy example. So. Yeah, the problem though is if you, if you, if you let everybody use the system that is tracking all your cases and, you know, documenting where the cases are and what's being done and everyone's using a different way, there, there, there ain't no data, right? There's, there's nothing that's useful that comes out of a system that's not being used uniformly and that has quality control elements to it. We've never really had that. But now we have systems in place and we have a new system coming in and we are preparing for the quality control as much as we are for the setup. With everything in mind when we're setting it up is how are we going to be able to control this and how are we going to be able to make sure that everyone's using it the same way? Because at the end of the day, if you really want the data to be Useful. It's got to be used uniformly. And that's what we're. [00:17:57] Speaker B: Yeah, there's a saying that's a garbage in, garbage out. I think that's the saying. But yeah, I mean, this goes back to running a firm, running any business. It's systems and processes. Right. We have to have standardization so people plug in the right information in total so that we can actually get the data over time too. And look back. [00:18:25] Speaker A: So yeah, and I think the important thing for. Listen, I manage a firm, there's 30 people, we have 10 lawyers from. For what we do. That's pretty big. But this applies to solo practitioners and small, small firms that have three people. Right. The, the message is do it early. Like, get, get these systems and processes in place now. So when you grow, you, you grow well, and you grow, right? And you know, you're growing and you can scale things when you know the data behind it. So to put, don't, don't minimize the. Well, don't put in a smaller effort to get your systems in place. Put all your effort into that. And then as your firm grows, it'll be easier to manage the growth and to manage, you know, additional people who come in because you've got these systems in place. Know that that was the mistake we made. We got the system and we did the training. You know, they came in, they once a week and everybody did it. And then it was, you know, everybody, every person, for free, for all. Yeah. So you, you. The best way to stay on top of it is to do it early when you only have three people. So spend the time, spend the money, learn. And, and here's the other thing. There are so many potential data points out there. There's a million different stats and data that you can get. And, and usually people have not enough or too much. Right. So there's a sweet spot for everybody, given what your situation is, you know, how big your firm is, what your, what your caseload is and who your staff is and what their skills are. But, so that's where you should be spending your time as the managing partner. Find out, you know, the sweet spot for everybody and find out which data points are meaningful to you. And when I say data points, I'm talking about the case management. I'm talking about financials too. And of course you had bookkeepers and accountants who can help you with that stuff. But all this stuff is so important and, and you know, to be honest, I wasn't paying attention to the accountant that much. We would meet and talk about the profit loss Statement. I don't know. I'm like, what. What does that mean? [00:20:25] Speaker B: You know, what do I do about it? [00:20:27] Speaker A: Right, Right. They say, oh, this is up 50. Great, okay, so now what? You know, keep doing it. All right, you know, so yeah, it's. It's. It's really somewhere that all people managing firms, if you're a solo, whatever, that's where you should be focused on. Definitely understand the numbers and just get the numbers that are important to you and find a way to keep track of them, you know, every month, every quarter or whatever. That's the way. [00:20:54] Speaker B: I totally agree with you. It's a lot harder to add a system once you got 10, 15, 20 people and now you, boom. We all now have to use this other system that we've never used before, versus the third person comes in, the fourth person comes in. Hey, we have a system here. This is what we do. And that just builds and scales over time also, too, when you're small, kind of your point, who do you hire next? And you just go, as you're busy, we make decisions on busy. This person's busy. So meet another person. That person's busy. So we need another person. My employees will always ask for another staff member. [00:21:32] Speaker A: Right. [00:21:33] Speaker B: But what, you know, what's the data show and what's, you know, let's look at, like, what are you really spending your time doing? You know, can we replace that with AI or a virtual assistant or whatever? But if you have the data, then it's easy to say, hey, we don't need another person. We need to just maybe get another software or maybe we need to cut this out of the process. But if you have no data, you're hiring more people, more money. More money out the door. And that's going to hurt a small law firm for sure, trying to grow, add another associate marketing, you know, whatever it may be. So, yeah, know your numbers across the board on everything, and you. Your life will be much easier. You can make better decisions. And honestly, you know, me and Jeff are both nice guys, it seems like. And yes. Where yes men, right? [00:22:27] Speaker A: Yeah. People pleasers. [00:22:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. It's so much easier to be direct or to make a decision if it's clear. [00:22:36] Speaker A: Right. [00:22:36] Speaker B: There's no ambiguity. There's no ambiguity. [00:22:38] Speaker A: You know, the decision's not coming from me. That's what the numbers tell us that you can't argue with that. [00:22:44] Speaker B: Yeah. 100 sales people. I have sales people that are performing. [00:22:47] Speaker A: Right. [00:22:47] Speaker B: But they didn't. They didn't call any law firms. They didn't reach out to anybody. They didn't talk to Jeff. Then it's clear that there's no way they're going to perform if they haven't hit the other metrics. Right. So it's easy to go to them and say, hey, you're not performing at what you should be. It's clear it's day. But if you're not tracking any of that stuff, then you have to have tough conversations and you feel weird about it and you can have other HR situations because it's a surprise and, and no one knew what was going on. So it leads to lots of things. But. So I'm very excited that you've guys, you have taken that challenge on. And what system did you end up choosing? [00:23:32] Speaker A: Well, we're going with Neos. There was a lot of. There's a lot of different ones out there. And, you know, I heard good and bad things about everybody, including Neos. But we did go into this process with eyes open and, and for everyone. We tried. We, we got to utilize the system for like two weeks or a month. And I put the, the key people who are on my team in those systems for that time and then with their feedback, that's how we made the choice. So it's maybe not for everybody, but it, it turned out to be the best one for us. [00:24:05] Speaker B: Well, that's great. [00:24:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:07] Speaker B: You involved your team. [00:24:08] Speaker A: Yes. [00:24:09] Speaker B: To make the selection. [00:24:10] Speaker A: So they use the system more than I do and they're better at it than I am. And it was a more. It was a natural transition, too, because we currently are using TrialWorks and it's the same company that owns Trial Works and Neos. So as everyone's so afraid of the migration process, it should be smoother because it's the same company. But, you know, they're going to be bumps. There always are. But we got to talk about AI because you mentioned AI and yes, I got to share my experiences with that because I, I have had a roller coaster experience with it, but I, I am totally into it. I am embracing it as much as possible. And of course, not everybody is. Not everybody in my firm is. And, you know, it's something that's not going away and I've completely embraced it. And. But it's a, it's an evolving relationship. We'll say. I, I don't think for me that I'm not replacing anybody with AI. Like, I, I did think that in the beginning when I'm learning about this, I'm like, oh, my God, you know, could do everything you Know so that that was the, the messaging when this first started and it's, it's changing every few months. But my conclusion in, in getting familiar with the stuff is I'm not replacing anybody with, with AI but I am such a fan of it and know firmly believe that it can make everybody better. And it's, it's a tool that I'm so much impressing on people to just use just even with your personal life, just use it. Get to know what it feels like to ask these questions and get these answers and then ask follow up questions again, follow up angels and just see how it interacts and see where it helps you in your life. And I wouldn't, I'm saying not even at your desk, just get familiar with it. It's an incredible thing. We are in a new age of technology that, that is not going away and is only getting better. And so I've had, we have a big firm, 30 people. There's people who are older who do not embrace technology and are afraid of it. And then there are the young people who it's their life, it's Tuesday, you know, that's what they do. And I, whatever and everything in between. And so the challenge and what we've been experiencing is where can we bring this in where people are comfortable, where can we bring in where it's going to help us the most? Where can it be helping individuals the most? And the best example is my partner and we're the same age pretty much. And he's not a tech guy. You know, he's a trial guy and not a, not a paper guy, a trial guy. And he brings in a ton of business and he's a fantastic golfer, that those are his three best skills. And so, and, and not tech savvy. So he says because he all of a sudden became tech savvy when they came out with trial software that he could use on trial for documents and, and videos and exhibits and stuff like that. And all of a sudden he became an expert and, and, and doesn't even need an assistant now. He's got. Yeah, I could do it. So, and I knew it was. And so when, when AI came out he's like oh, not for me, not for me. And, and I, I literally had to go to his desk and type in stuffs for him to actually see how it worked physically actually. And, and now I, I don't know. I think he has a name for his AI because it's his best friend. It's his best friend. He, there's nothing he doesn't pass through AI just to see what the guy thinks. But in all honesty, he really does use it for work. He uses it to, you know, for research, for, you know, trial prep for, and, and for him. He's a guy that is, is a little disorganized in his life and even in his thoughts sometimes. And, and the way he describes it is that AI just organizes his thoughts for him. Like he can go in there and just sort of spill out things and, and it brings it back in a way that more sense logically or, you know, to the way a jury would want to hear it. And he speaks to juries incredibly well. But this tool organizes his brain in a way that makes him a better lawyer. [00:28:26] Speaker B: No, it's, it's really amazing. I have, at my company, we allow everyone to have pro licenses for chat. We're actually moving. That's a claw to say everyone. People want to use that, but. And we're doing the same thing. I've been hiring more people. We're actually at over 65 people. We've not replaced anybody. I think, you know, there's less need for, you know, task admin type work. We're automating a lot of stuff, but we're making a lot of people's lives easier and let them focus on what they're really good at. And so I'm very disorganized, like your partner, so it really helps me too. And I mean, it's so cool that you can build out like, like we have a new brand for my agency at Array, and we have a whole brand guideline and all this stuff. You can just dump that in there and say, hey, I'm going to make this graphic or the social post, run it through my brand guidelines and make sure it's on message and it'll just fix it for you. There's all kinds of applications for it, so 100% everyone listening should be embracing it, using it, getting to know it. I think that's a good way to put it, Jeff. Get to know it and understand it, because it's not going anywhere. And even in like the aba, it's like they've changed their tone on it. Like you should be using it, you know, and using technology to improve the client's experience. [00:29:56] Speaker A: Right. But be careful. Don't cite cases that don't exist in motions, you know, because it does hallucinate. Right. I've seen it. It makes stuff up because it wants to make you happy. And I know they're working on this, but it is A thing. And, and there were lawyers who got called out and in trouble for just taking what it said and putting it in papers that they submit to court, federal court. And the cases are not real, you [00:30:20] Speaker B: know, so I just saw something about that this morning, I think with the judge or something like that. But there are some dedicated softwares out there that have their own lockdown. So there are some, some softwares out there. I won't say any right now, but. Yeah, but just know that it's getting better every day. If you're not using it, your competitor is and it can help you. [00:30:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:44] Speaker B: You know, you don't have to fire people, replace people, but it can make everyone's life easier. [00:30:49] Speaker A: And I will say the one experience, one of the first experiences I had was exploring like a virtual receptionist. Right. So, you know, the journey of the new client and the, you know, it's a weekend, it's nighttime, you know, you just want consistency, you want urgency, immediacy. And what better than an AI who doesn't sleep, doesn't eat and isn't distracted and all that? Bottom line, it did, it doesn't work for me. It was an idea and it sounded like a good idea, but specifically for what I do when there's someone calling my firm who, who's, and they've been injured, usually in a catastrophic, you know, event, whether it's from a doctor or a car accident or whatever, it's not there yet. You know. Yeah, I, and, and I will say it is good. I, I've, when I was going through that experience, I was hearing certain, you know, examples of what it could do, what it can't do. And, and there were times I wasn't able to tell if it was not real or, or, or a bot, you know, and it was very impressive. But the reality is it's not for me at this point. It's not worth the risk of any client thinking, am I talking to a person? That, you know, these cases are, are serious enough that, that they have to talk to a person and that's fine. And that's why we have an intake team and that's why we train the intake team. These are special skills you have to have to talk to people who are suffering and have experienced these life changing events. And the intake people are the first impression that these people have of me and my firm and underscore the importance of that in general. First impressions are everything for, for us and for this kind of work, especially with the mass doors, because, you know, we're, we're nationally Advertising people don't know us. Before mass tours, most of our work came from attorneys who really vetted most of the stuff because a lot of the attorneys wouldn't even send me cases that they know I will take. So the quality of the referrals from attorneys is very high. And what I've learned and what the data shows that the referrals from, you know, the country that come, that they're responding to, you know, ads that we're putting out on meta and videos I'm doing and all this stuff, not as good quality. Right. And those people just have a list of lawyers and they're going down the list. And if somebody doesn't answer the phone, they go to the next number. If somebody phone, they don't like it, they go to the next number. So there's a whole different approach and skill set needed to deal with those kinds of people. And that's new to us. And so we're learning. But first thing I learned is no AI for that. [00:33:31] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I mean, I, I hear, I talk to lots of folks, obviously, and there's people that are hard against it, and there's some that are the opposite where they're just. We've gone on AI for our intake, so I think could depend on the practice area you have, you know, if it's criminal defense, small ticket items, stuff like that. If know, if not, if you're not going to answer the phone, maybe AI is a better thing than not responding. So I think you just got to look at your situation and it is getting better. I was at a conference in San Antonio for pilma, which is a personal injury group. And there was all kinds of AI, you know, companies, reception companies, and there you could test it out. It was impressive. Yeah, but people could still tell if it's AI at this point. So I think, yeah, just decision to make, you know, but, you know, a lot of, A lot of the trial attorneys I know are just not happening. And maybe one day that'll change. [00:34:35] Speaker A: But yeah, that's what they keep telling me. You know, when I was going through the process, you know, the companies I was talking to, they would say everything's in six months. That was like the six months, everything's going to be different, it's going to be better. You know, whatever I was asking six months. And I think it's true. I think things are changing like incredibly rapidly with AI. And I'm like, I was at an event last night talking to somebody who's in, you know, web design or whatever, and the things that he was telling me that his company does for their clients, that would. And he said this. It would take otherwise years to accomplish these tasks. It's taken days, you know, and that I, I can't see that happen in my business. But, you know, this is happening. This is real. It's affecting tons of businesses and people and lives and, And I'm sure there are people being replaced by AI in other fields. So, yeah, you can't ignore it. You have to embrace it on some level. And it's a fear thing. I think it's based in fear. Listen, I, I. My parents, I'm dealing with, you know, they're afraid of the phone. My father still pushes the buttons on the iPhone like he's dialing, you know, on a regular phone. It hits it like this. What are you doing? So, you know, there's a fear factor that you just have to get over. You have to, you have to fight through it, you know, And I do know it's going to continue to help us in ways that we're probably not even thinking of at the moment. [00:35:59] Speaker B: Yeah, no, totally agree with you. So, yeah, I appreciate you coming on Jeff again on the show. Um, you know, you've grown so much as a managing partner, of course, and you've shared a lot of cool stuff here today. I mean, delegating, bringing on good people, letting them do their thing, bringing in people that have the experience versus someone that just comes up with through the firm. We've had that situation many times here. Sometimes you gotta go outside and they don't have to have had a law firm experience. They just need to have that operational experience. So it's important to bring those people in to do the stuff that you can't do. So that's a huge thing. And then I love the fact that, you know, I've been the master sports made perfect out in Vegas. But, you know, you explored. Didn't feel right the first time, but you, you found a whole nother line of business and brought that to the firm. I think that's important for everyone listening, too, that, you know, you can have blinders on, but you got to be open, listening, learning, going to conferences, masterminds, podcasts, whatever, because you never know what you might stumble onto that could, you know, be in the next add on or compliment to your firm. So love it. [00:37:19] Speaker A: And kudos to you, man. This podcast is great. The fact that you're still doing it five years later, I don't know how many podcasts are done after, like, two months. [00:37:27] Speaker B: So, I mean, a Lot of people start and stop. [00:37:30] Speaker A: Exactly. And you know, you're doing a great job. How many episodes have you had? Like 500. [00:37:34] Speaker B: We're a little over 500, I think. Yeah. Yep. [00:37:38] Speaker A: That's good. Well, you put out a great. [00:37:39] Speaker B: And now we're. Yeah. And no, I appreciate that. And I love doing. Because I love business. I tell people this. I own marketing companies, but I'm not passionate about marketing. I'm passionate about, you know, operation, you know, business. Entrepreneurship. And a marketing company can be amazing or crap compared to how you run it. Same with a law firm. Some law firms perform better, but it's all about what the leadership is learning and putting into practice. And it's all stuff you can find out there for free. Podcasts. Yeah. [00:38:16] Speaker A: So you're doing something right. Maybe you're taking the advice of the people you come on, who come on as guests and making you a better. A better boss. [00:38:24] Speaker B: So everyone's like, well, hey, what's the benefit of the podcast? You know? And when I first started, I was like, well, I just want to meet lawyers because that's our client. We do marketing for law firms. That's easy. And then. So was that one. Well, I get the relationship one on one conversation number two, I get the content which we can put out there to the world. It can be shared with other people. And then we get referrals a lot of times from guests, more member, you know, more guests that come on the show. Sometimes they do demarketing themselves. Hey, Kevin, great. This is awesome. Can you actually look at our stuff that happens? I don't push that. But the fourth thing is I get to learn stuff right from other business owners right here live on the show, and I can take that back and, and put it into practice, too. So it's a lot of benefits to doing this, for sure, and I appreciate having the opportunity to do it. [00:39:25] Speaker A: And I'm taking. I'm taking a page out of your book where I am starting a podcast that's. That's going to be out soon. We're still working on it. It's really a public interest podcast about health. It's geared towards patients, how to become better advocates for yourself, using my medical malpractice background and knowledge. But it's not going to be about that. It's going to be about how do you protect yourself in the health system? How can you better represent yourself and vet doctors and know how to talk to doctors and understand what's on in the health care industry so you can be better served and you know, help yourself and your family better. [00:40:01] Speaker B: I love that. [00:40:02] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. [00:40:02] Speaker B: I think that's a great, great topic and approach to it. You know, a lot of law firms just want to, like, talk about the law and, and no one really wants to dial into that. So maybe a longer term, like a divorce, like there's a divorce podcast. I'm sure that would do well because some people don't get a divorce until many years later. Right. So they might actually tune into some stuff. But no one's going to listen to a car accident podcast. And I don't know, it's just, I. I think what you're doing is great and if you need the help, guidance, always happy to powwow and talk since I've done this for a while. [00:40:41] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:40:41] Speaker B: Thank you. Yeah, yeah. Well, Jeff, I appreciate you coming back on and sharing where you. Where you've been and what you've learned. Plenty more to share, I'm sure. So maybe we'll have Jeff on again soon. What's the best way for anyone listening to find you and connect? [00:40:58] Speaker A: Just check out our website. It's sskblaw.com and, you know, everything you need to know about us is on there and we're here to help. [00:41:08] Speaker B: Will the podcast be linked off the site in the future? [00:41:11] Speaker A: That's a technical question. I don't know. But if it helps, I'm sure my team will make it happen. We're working on just the studio right now. [00:41:19] Speaker B: Nice. Yeah, I think it's great to link it off the site that way. That's what we do. But yeah, ask your marketing people. [00:41:26] Speaker A: I will. [00:41:29] Speaker B: All right, well, Jeff, you stay on with me for a few secs. My this uploads. And everyone, thank you so much for tuning in. And Jeff, I appreciate you not only coming on, but being a listener of the show, so. [00:41:42] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. Thank you, Kevin. [00:41:44] Speaker B: We'll see you all soon on the next episode. [00:41:54] Speaker A: It.