Episode Transcript
speaker-0 (00:00)
There's work that only the lawyer or the partner can do. That's the work that that person should be doing. So I want everybody to perform at the highest level. Then the associates fill out the next two and it gets narrower. And then finally you get to the people that are trying the cases or arguing them. And that's what they do best. And the clients are better served because they're getting the highest skilled individuals doing the best work that can be done at the cheapest price.
speaker-1 (00:43)
Most firms survive, the best ones scale. Welcome to the Managing Partners Podcast, where firm leaders learn to think bigger. I'm Kevin Daisy. Let's jump in. What's up, everyone? Welcome to the show. Welcome to another episode of the Managing Partners podcast. And I just want to always say, you know, thank you so much for tuning in to the show. Hopefully, it's ⁓ proven to be helpful.
I'm always looking for great guests that can come on and share stories, wins, fails. And ⁓ hope hope our guests out there ⁓ and our listeners can can learn from the show. Even if it's a small tip, you know, something to help you with your business, run your law firm better, ⁓ more efficiently. That's what we're looking for. So ⁓ excited to have ⁓ Bruce on the show here, Bruce Barquette out of New York.
speaker-0 (01:39)
Thanks for having me. Pleasure to be here.
speaker-1 (01:41)
Absolutely. we have some technical issues we worked through. Sometimes that happens, but Bruce has been ⁓ a good sport and we're excited to have him share ⁓ his journey and ⁓ you know, focus on what you know what he does and and how he helps his clients. But more importantly, how they built the firm, maybe some good, some bad things that he's seen over his his time there and
I looking for some good lessons for everyone that's that's tuned in. So ⁓ Bruce, tell us a little bit more about you know, where you're located, what your firm specializes in and kinda what area do you cover?
speaker-0 (02:20)
So we have a a law firm that has offices in Manhattan and two offices on Long Island. We service the metropolitan area in New York City for sure. And because some of our work has brought us to different locations in New York, we have a pretty vibrant practice throughout New York State. And to some degree we've ⁓ have we're not a national firm, but we've handled cases all over the country. ⁓
Our firm was established in 2012. Don't want to take credit or blame, but it was my idea to set up a firm that would be able to provide litigation services for anybody from commercial litigation to civil rights, which is largely ⁓ wrongful convictions, false arrests, and excessive force by the police to personal injury, to criminal defense and criminal defense from DWIs.
So the most basic misdemeanors all the way through the most complex federal litigation involving racketeering, eight and nine figure fraud cases, and in some cases even more than that, as well as a very vibrant and very I forgive the the bragging, but very powerful and successful appellate practice. And we set about building the firm kind of the same way a coach might fill out a roster on a football team, right?
You don't need seven star quarterbacks. You need one and maybe a backup. You need blockers, you need ends, you need receivers, you need running backs, you need a defense, and you need support staff. So we started with four in two thousand and twelve. Couple of personality changes, but n not many. I'm I'm happy to say that most of the people that that have joined our forum have stayed. And we're up to about sixteen now.
Or eighteen and we're about to hire another person or two. And we have a pretty good practice. The the civil rights contingency fee and commercial group has really exploded. ⁓ and it's ⁓ one of the bigger sources of revenue. The person who handles the vehicular crimes, the DWI, Stephen Epstein, is nationally renowned. I would say he's probably the best person in the country right now for these kinds of cases. He lectures lawyers all over the country.
on how to handle DWIs and vehicular homicides, and is recruited by high net worth individuals to represent them all across the country, and including here in New York. ⁓ and he handles routine, if you can, DWI cases. ⁓ our appellate practice, I was able to took me a couple of years, but to talk Donna Aldea away from the the Queen's DA's office where she headed up their special litigation unit, which is really all the
major cases and the appeals. And she has developed the appellate practice ⁓ unbelievably. She's done great work. The appeals you can actually unlike trial attorneys, right? There's no stats on trial attorneys. You can Google my name and you'll see the cases that were reported ⁓ in the press, but you really don't know how many cases I've won or lost or how many cases I've even tried. Appellate attorneys, you can actually count their cases.
the number of cases they've argued, the number of cases that they've won, and the number of cases they've lost. And Donna has built up an a a n a a very impressive track record. ⁓ we have a retired judge who is ⁓ part of our our team. And what we've tried to do is fill out those spots like a roster, right? I I don't need three DWI guys. I don't need three commercial people. I need one in each area and then
obviously support for them and you fill out the lawyers as the revenue is justifies. So the appellate group, for example, was just Donna for a while, and now we have two full time lawyers that are working for her and and there's another third that does some work part time. So you really have three or four lawyers working in her group and it's still enormously profitable for the firm because she's very successful. She works very hard. And that's kind of how we built it out. But
practice area and geography, right? So in the metropolitan area you have five ⁓ counties in New York City, Westchester, which is close by, we do a lot of work there, and then of course on Long Island where we have two offices, Nassau and Suffolk, just to give people a quick geography lesson, right? And in each of those jurisdictions, there are main players, people with power, ways of working, methods, and so forth.
So when we picked individuals for the firm, we obviously wanted to fill out the practice areas, but we also wanted to make sure that ⁓ when we went into a county, Brooklyn, the Bronx, Suffolk, Westchester, wherever, that we had some local connections and some local inside knowledge. The old there's an old adage that above
the courthouse and every in every courthouse in the country, there's a phrase that says, only a fool doesn't hire local counsel. That may be less true these days given you know, travel and the internet and so forth, but it's still a fundamental principle. So when we take cases in different jurisdictions and we have, we've been in New Mexico, Baltimore, Chicago, Philadelphia, Boston, Florida, Texas, ⁓ California, what we've done is we
We go out and we find one of the best practitioners in that jurisdiction, hire them as local counsel, and they become our advisor on this magistrate likes it this way, this judge does that, this this attorney is this. And so ⁓ that's kind of how we built out the firm, and that's our basic philosophy of of hiring and
speaker-1 (08:31)
Yeah, I love I like so I like the ⁓ kind of the analogy to like a sports team in the roster. ⁓ just a a way to kinda look at the structure there.
speaker-0 (08:42)
I'm told I'm not supposed to use sports analogies anymore because not everybody's into sports, but it it makes so much sense to me it's hard not to.
speaker-1 (08:50)
Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, a lot of what I heard, you know, is being intentional, ⁓ how important the team is and the individuals ⁓ in those positions. ⁓ and then kind of leading with your really good attorney in that practice area and then building from there as you go. And and I think, you know, having that ⁓ ability to kind of
speaker-0 (08:52)
So it works.
speaker-1 (09:21)
look at hey do w when do we hire another attorney or do we just need extra support staff for this attorney and and how do we, you know, know when to get there. I think you know, people can overhire very quickly sometimes ⁓ and and not be profitable. We need to be profitable running our businesses and
speaker-0 (09:41)
As one of my partners say, revenue doesn't matter, profit does. And obviously profit's a function of revenue, but you could easily see how you could bring in a ⁓ a significant amount of revenue and not have very much profit if you're not smart about how you spend it.
speaker-1 (09:56)
Yeah, if you ever run into a a business owner or someone you know and where do you want a million, or would want ten million or twenty million? Doesn't really tell the whole story, right? No, it doesn't. ⁓
speaker-0 (10:08)
A friend of mine once said it doesn't matter how much you make, it matters how much you save. And that's kind of the same ⁓ philosophy. That doesn't matter how much our revenue is. It we want to see how much our profit is. What's the difference between our expenditures and our revenue? That's the number that we f wanna focus on. And I think that's a good way of looking at it. And you're correct. You that the the cornerstone of all of it is high quality, the best attorneys in a practice area.
who then can we can build underneath them to support them. But if the person at the top of the group is not that good, it will fail. So I we've been lucky. I've been lucky that the people that we brought in really have been leaders. And the the if you if you want one tagline for the individuals or what we want from lawyers that we hire, we want leaders in the profession and leaders in the community. So I I want lawyers that are recognized across the board.
in our profession as being outstanding lawyers. And I want people that are involved in their community and are leaders there. Leaders, they don't have to be politicians and obviously ⁓ none of our lawyers are, but they're involved in civic groups, country clubs. Maybe they're involved in politics to some degree, but they're out into the community and people know them and recognize them.
speaker-1 (11:29)
Boards, charities, things like that.
speaker-0 (11:32)
Whatever you say, topics, religion, civic groups, country clubs, golfs. We have one lawyer, he we just hired him, and he is a hand wrestling champion. Like hand wrestling, like those grips. Do you see the grips? He's a he's not a big guy. And I was looking at him. He can ta I watch this for myself. He took a deck of cards in the box, right? Like that.
speaker-1 (11:49)
Yeah, yeah.
speaker-0 (12:01)
And tore it in half with his hands. Now I I consider myself in shape. I I work out regularly. I can lift more than I weigh. I run, I swim, I bike, I lift weights regularly, and I consider myself pretty strong. And I went to use one of his grips that he trains with, and I I couldn't squeeze it. I couldn't believe how strong he was. So that's his thing. He's involved in that and he's involved in these national competitions. So it's spectacular. But I'll tell you what.
For for a party trek, watching him tear a deck of cards in half is unbelievable.
speaker-1 (12:37)
I got a sack of ⁓ Waffer minor cards here.
speaker-0 (12:41)
You'd have to well the the deck of playing cards, don't they like, you know, twice as thick as this? Yeah.
speaker-1 (12:46)
That's crazy. It's they're not that it's not that big to get a lot of leverage on.
speaker-0 (12:51)
You don't have yeah, you have to literally just I I couldn't believe it when I saw it. But in a in any event, ⁓ that's his involvement. I like to play golf and exercise. I'm involved in religious stuff, ⁓ some politics and ev everybody's got something they do. ⁓ you know, coaching or acting, local theater, things like that.
speaker-1 (13:12)
think that's great because, you know, I I talk about this all the time, obviously in the marketing, but ⁓ the your brand, your personal brand matters and and your attorneys that their partners or work for your firm. If they just sit in behind closed doors, they never leave the office, they don't get out, they're not interested to, you know, build relationships or speak at things or ⁓ you know, it it's really hard. ⁓
to kind of build a lot of momentum behind that. But, you know, today, when people are looking for an attorney or a firm, you know, if you're just hidden away and no one knows who you are, then it's it's it's becoming really difficult. So we need community involvement, we need ⁓ mentions, we need ⁓ other things. And as a marketer, the more the attorneys are active, it doesn't have to be in stuff that has to do with the firm, but just in their communities they're known, they have a name, ⁓ and they're good at what they do.
Then that's gonna be ⁓ a lot easier to leverage and then they're authentic. They're people probably ⁓ wanna work with them, connect with them, and that probably comes through ⁓ as clients ⁓ interact with with them as well. So yeah. A lot of benefits.
speaker-0 (14:30)
It's an it's an important part of the practice, as I say, we could be the best lawyers and the best law firm in the country, but if we don't have clients, we're all gonna be doing something else.
speaker-1 (14:41)
Yeah. So you started in twenty twelve. ⁓ how many partners, ⁓ lawyers on the team versus
speaker-0 (14:48)
We ha we have ⁓ four owners or equity partners and three non equity partners, one or two of whom will join the equity ranks probably at the end of this year, and then about the same number, about seven or eight lawyers who are employed with the firm ⁓ as a as I don't like to say associates because I think that is a tag or a moniker that sort of
demeans people, they're lawyers in our office and they ⁓ are an important part of what we do.
speaker-1 (15:23)
Yeah. And then what about support staff and
speaker-0 (15:26)
Yeah, that that's been actually been the most challenging. I say the most challenging. It's tough to find really good lawyers. It it truly is. ⁓ but it's even tougher to find really good paralegals. and that's been a that's been a challenge. So we've used recruiting ⁓ agencies, word of mouth, and ⁓ I think we're we're climbing the the hill, if you will, of getting
the highest quality paralegals because that you need that to match the the attorneys, right? I mean, go back to my sports analogy, if you don't have good a good line coach or a good trainer who can keep the athletes healthy, doesn't matter how fast or strong they are, they're not going to perform well. They need support. And the same way the lawyers need support. They should not be
doing things that a paralegal should be doing. And I I try to look at it if you can imagine of a a a pyramid of the work that needs to be done, right? So at the top of the pyramid is the work that only the most experienced lawyer can do. And then as you go down, that lawyer can do everything. The lawyer can photocopy and scan if that's what's required. But there's work that only the lawyer or the partner can do.
And so that's the work that that person should be doing. They shouldn't be doing the work that ⁓ others can do. So I want everybody to perform at the highest level. So if the paralegals can fill out the bottom two levels of the pyramid, that's great. Then the associates fill out the next two and it and it gets narrower. And then finally you get to the people that are trying the cases or arguing them and that's what they do best. And they can do dedicate their time and it it it
it look, I I talk about it as if it's a perfect setup. It's not, and it doesn't always work perfectly. But that's the goal. And the clients are better served because they're getting ⁓ the highest skilled individuals doing the best work they that can be done at the cheapest price. So our my hourly rate is obviously more than a paralegal's. So if I'm doing paralegal work, the client even if I'm doing it great, the client is is
is not well served because they're paying my hourly rate for something they should be paying, you know, a fraction of my hourly rate for. And and that's that's our philosophy.
speaker-1 (17:58)
Yeah, I mean a lot a lot ⁓ I say this all the time on the show, but a lot of what a law firm does, a lot of the work is is not the top end l legal work. It's all the other stuff. Communication, forms, follow ups, communic you know, onboarding with the client, ⁓ you know, all the way from intake, sales, everything, right? So it's there's a lot of functions of a law firm that do not require a lawyer to do. So, you know, removing as much of that as you can.
benefits the client 'cause they'll probably get more access, more time, quicker follow up. The lawyer's not gonna be able to to do that, especially if they're deep in a case or in trial. So yeah, I think that's one of the biggest things for smaller firms to kind of get figured out. You know, I have a lot of smaller clients that ⁓
speaker-0 (18:47)
Relatively speaking, we're we're not a big firm, right? We're not we're not several hundred lawyers, we're not even several dozen lawyers. And we're about the size I think we'll we'll top out. I don't think we'll get beyond twenty. because the we'll have filled out the positions that we want filled out, and as long as we have the staff underneath it, we should be able to do ⁓ do well and be profitable.
speaker-1 (19:13)
Well success is different for everyone. You know, do you wanna be the biggest law firm in the country? Probably not. If that's not the case, you know, what does that look like for you and and and managing, you know, the firm time and energy that goes into it? What's what's that sweet spot? So yeah, everyone's got their own version of that, I think. So no, but sounds like you've done just you've done a great job. Again, it's like you guys got a plan, you had intention, you know, you started with really good lawyers that were on the same page. I think that's right.
speaker-0 (19:41)
I don't want to say we've done a good job. I would say that we're working towards doing a good job, right? That we're we're moving forward. I I the day at some point in my career I recognize that that this isn't a destination. It's a it's progress. It's a it's a journey. So as you're going through it, you never you never arrive, right? Unless you frankly until you die. And then somebody can look back and say, This person did a good job or a bad job.
But as we're going through here, and I've been practicing for forty years, ⁓ and I was a prosecutor at first and I've been a a defense attorney now for thirty-five. ⁓ I keep figuring out ways or try to figure out ways to improve and get better and grow. ⁓ a couple of years ago we we engaged SEO groups, we've engaged law office management groups to help us figure this out, how to hire people, ⁓ how to market, what to do.
E every day it seems like I'm I'm learning something new. And frankly, coming on your podcast is I I got the invitation. I'm like, this looks interesting, why not? And of course I love I love talking about myself and my firm, so it gives me a few minutes to do both.
speaker-1 (20:52)
I think that's that's the secret right there is you're constantly trying to improve. You have a open mind. You're not this you don't know everything. I've met plenty of lawyers that that do, but ⁓ but being curious, trying to improve, no matter what how far in you are. I think that's that's kind of the thing and you know I've been in a business for over twenty years. It's never figured out. And ⁓ what you had perfectly working here last month is broken or near
speaker-0 (21:22)
needs improvement or needs it's it's I was a football player in high school. You can't run the same play over and over again, even as was successful three times. People people will stop. Figure it out. So you g you gotta you gotta adapt and and keep moving. The big changes in in the industry in terms of marketing and practice s really since COVID has turned things not upside down, but it really has been significant changes, both in terms of marketing and
speaker-1 (21:32)
They'll figure it out.
speaker-0 (21:52)
how you practice because of things like Zoom and virtual meetings. So we you know and and you Right and my cell phone, yeah, and we don't have legal secretaries anymore. There's no such thing, at least not in our office. we have paralegals and I have a r receptionist and a file clerk and things like that. But the days of a legal secretary, when I started the practice, you know, I'd hand write out motions or dictate them and a secretary would type them up and then I would
speaker-1 (22:00)
Mode staff.
speaker-0 (22:22)
you'd print them and you'd staple them together with those blue backs and y you send it out and you have to wait and all the rules were built around that. ⁓ at the time, right? So many days if you serve it by mail, so many days if you personally serve it. Now I hit click and there's you know and that's not that's not and that's been the state court system really hasn't, at least in New York, hasn't adopted electronic filing, hadn't adr adopted
electronic filing into the last few years. Federal courts have had it for a long time. State courts, at least in New York, are just starting to get around to it in civil cases first, but now the criminal cases. it's really been wildly different. And the cell phones and emails and text messages, I guess are helpful at times, but to me, I was saying it yesterday, it was I had a little afternoon of general marketing, which was ⁓ playing around the golf with a retired judge.
Who had just retired and very well known individual. So, you know, obviously a good, a good way to, again, be out in the universe and golf is something I enjoy. I had a nice time with him. He's a good guy. ⁓ my cell phone is going boom, boom, boom. I I haven't on silent, but I can kind of see this stuff flashing up. And it used to be if I was out of my office, nobody could reach me. Right? He had beepers at some point for true emergencies. Now I got
from a client last Saturday night. My mother was in town and so I'm getting dinner ready and I'm d my cell phone goes off and I pick it up. I'm like, is this an emergency? The answer is no. It's not an emergency. It's just I wanted to talk about something. I said, Well it's Saturday at six. So I'm gonna I'm gonna put this off. But people think they can reach you twenty four seven. And if you don't get back to them they'll
speaker-1 (24:11)
⁓ It's again behavior has changed with clients and and consumers. It's you know, I think about Uber, ⁓ pizza delivery, dominoes, Uber Eats, ⁓ instant access and updates. Here's your ride, it's coming, it's almost here, it's here. your pizza is being made by Bruce. He's making it and he's almost done with it, and now he's gonna deliver it. So
speaker-0 (24:38)
Yes. Exactly. I didn't think about that right. My my my my kids won't talk to people on the phone. My oldest is gonna graduate from American in December. she w she wants to go into law school and become a lawyer. As as she puts it to I wanna represent I wanna do what my dad does, but for poor people. Which God love her, you know, ⁓ I hope I hope it goes well. But she won't ⁓
speaker-1 (25:02)
We have pro bona lure.
speaker-0 (25:05)
She won't pick up the phone to order a pizza. If they don't do it online, she won't order it from that place. Just won't do it. So Yeah. So and it's well, but that's and people I don't I haven't dated in, you know, twenty five years or so. Twenty six, whatever it's been since we've been married. I I I can't imagine what dating is like now. Yeah, everybody meets online.
speaker-1 (25:11)
No talk to nobody.
It's something to keep aware of and I think from the marketing side is, you know, how do you connect with these these clients these days and how their habits have changed and search and expectations, communication styles, you know, they can text your firm versus having to talk to someone and and and it depends on the situation. I think it depends on the the type of practice area.
speaker-0 (25:52)
Yeah, and look, some of the stuff you can do via text a little bit, but the the one of the things that has we're developing and working on is intake. Right? So somebody is finding us online and they're calling ⁓ our office or emailing us and usually calling, ⁓ they're going down a list of like w when you make ⁓ hotel reservations. ⁓ boom, boom, boom, or dinner reservations. You just
Click on down and so to get the the individuals who are picking up the phone to engage the person and get them on the phone with a lawyer and then have the lawyer get the person into the office or via Zoom, onto a Zoom right away, so that they're kind of descending down the Google search, if you will, stops at Barquette Epstein. That they're not they're not calling the next person.
And the people that may have been above us for whatever reason they still called us.
speaker-1 (26:55)
Well yeah, there's all kinds of things, right? ⁓ your name, recognition, maybe there's no lawyer there, maybe your reviews ⁓ sure. All all with things.
speaker-0 (27:05)
And the the disgruntled clients can can do a tremendous amount of damage, even though they are ⁓ a unicorn or an anomaly, right? Or they weren't badly served, they just didn't like the result. I I had a client who I begged to take a plea on a federal tax case. Begged to take a plea, wouldn't take a plea. ⁓ I I we tried the case, ⁓ I gave a summation.
And the the federal judge said, you know, my law clerks who watch trials all day long and all over the courthouse said your summation was one of the best summations they had ever heard. It was excellent. And I just thought I should tell you that, because you deserve the credit. And I said, what I always say, I I appreciate that, Judge, but I'm not getting a grade here. Right? This is not Bruce gets an A or B and summation. This is the result for the client. So let's hold that thought, right?
And but I knew what the result was going to be because I knew what the evidence was. And so the jury's coming back in and the client says to me, What do you think? And I said, What do I think? I think the same thing I thought a year ago when I begged you to take a plea, the same thing I thought a month ago when I begged you to take a plea, you're gonna get convicted. You don't have a defense. And sure enough, convicted. And just ever since then, has written anybody you will hear.
how awful of a lawyer I am and how terrible a job I did and I just wanted her money. ⁓ So it's well, it's unfortunate, but you gotta pay attention to that as a business owner, right? So you gotta kind of picking ⁓ some when I first started my practice, this goes back a long time ago, it's just me. somebody I went to a lecture on how to start a solo practice and what to do. And one of the lawyers said, ⁓ you won't be successful, profitable.
based upon the cases you take. Your profitability is going to d be determined in part based upon the cases you don't take. And he said this person said, I have a three lawyer rule. If if there's three lawyers and and I'm going to the fourth, I'm not doing it. Because what do I know that the first three didn't know? And, you know, you might want to pay your rent. You have stuff you have to do. You want to get bills. The person has a a checkbook. Don't do it. Don't do it. and, you know
Like all good advice I've gotten, I've sort of remembered it and followed it sometimes, but not all the time.
speaker-1 (29:35)
Sometimes it comes about it gets you. Same thing with us, you know, hiring a law firm that's not a good fit for us is it's bad for business and doesn't make any sense. ⁓ it's not worth it's not worth the ⁓ potential bad name or bad press. It's but it's hard when you're when you're slow or you're new, you're starting out, it's it's hard to say no to certain things. But you massive advice.
speaker-0 (29:55)
Even when even when you're not, it's it's difficult. You look at a case and you say, Wow, this could be really profitable. this could be a good case. Are the clients' expectations real, realistic? are they hoping for a a miracle? And to to one degree or another, ⁓ at times we're the victim of our own success. That we've we've been fortunate to have won some some some matters that looked unwinnable when we took them.
And so then the clients with the unwinnable cases, the tax case that I just described, come to us and expect the same magic trek, if you will, for their case, not re recognizing that, you know, there are unique circumstances and sometimes we can see a path to victory and sometimes you can't.
speaker-1 (30:41)
Again, same with my business. ⁓ I could have one firm from a different market and we crush it for them and just knock it out of the park and they're just growing like crazy. And similar size firm, same practice area in a whole different area of the country, different market. It's a lot of depends. It's a lot of variables and th what that firm does and how they operate versus maybe how this one du operates as a business. So it's there's a lot of things there that you can't control, but we we sometimes get that same thing.
You did it for that firm, you can do it for us, you know. ⁓ not always the case. ⁓ the other thing too, you gotta be careful about these days, and I've had a lot of lawyers report this often, is getting bad reviews and they never even hired you. Call, talk to someone, didn't like the outcome, they or they say, Hey, you're not a fit, we're gonna kick you off somewhere else. They talk to you, they spoke with a firm, they they can report that they had a interaction and Google's not one to
speaker-0 (31:40)
Yeah, Google is to let you
speaker-1 (31:41)
You remove that refuse.
speaker-0 (31:43)
Google is tough, so but we've we've we've paid attention to the reviews and so we're we we do our best to have our the clients for whom we have good relationships and have gotten great results to have them write about us.
speaker-1 (32:00)
It's just like pulling teeth, but it's if you can get to do it. Yeah.
speaker-0 (32:03)
I mean w we we've done a few promotional videos and we've had ⁓ several clients from whom we've gotten eight figure resolutions, settlements. And relatively quickly, like within a year or two, which is sort of unheard of at times. ⁓ so you're like, Hey, do us do me a favor and appear in this video and talk about how why you picked us and and they're like, No, I don't I don't wanna be on T V. I don't wanna
be advertising and I certainly don't want people to know I have fifteen million dollars. You kinda understand it, right? They want to Right. So you're right. It's a little bit like pulling teeth and the the the easiest thing to do is for people to post reviews. ⁓ they don't have to appear in video. They can do it somewhat anonymously, you know, as long as they
speaker-1 (32:51)
With any details, you know, maybe if you get those video ones to say, and let's not talk about what kind of case or the outcome of it or what you got, just why you picked us and why you liked us and keep it to that. ⁓ maybe a good idea to try. But ⁓ well, Bruce, I appreciate you sharing. Obviously, you ⁓ you have a great firm, you're passionate about what you're doing, ⁓ you're focused on the right things, in my opinion, and it's obviously served you well.
Final tip maybe something advice you would give to a younger lawyer entrepreneur ⁓ that's ⁓ you know, early in their s their stages of starting their own firm.
speaker-0 (33:30)
Look, at the end of the day, all the marketing and structural organization and so forth are all there for a a ⁓ purpose and a goal. And you need to keep that goal front and center in your in your thinking and your approach. And that is results for your clients. So we we I have a phrase that I use with I think I use it online, I certainly use it with the lawyers. We don't define the quality of our work.
from the results we get from our client. So the example I gave earlier about the judge thinking I gave an excellent summation, the client got convicted and went to prison and is furious with me. So ⁓ that's the result. You know, I I get that lawyers can do a great job and still lose. It's an adversarial system. But you shouldn't be patting yourself on the back when you you walk away and you you you you didn't achieve the result the client wanted. That's where you have to keep your your focus.
You need to you need to be successful for your client first and foremost. So the somebody just starting out, nothing matters more than taking in a client and performing for that client and achieving their objectives. if you can do that and and do it overcoming some odds, you'll be successful and you'll figure out how to structure your firm at as
As I'm still trying to do, but as I did, right? I was a solo practitioner for a little while. One partner, two partners, one employees. Now we've grown a little bit bigger, but we still keep that focus on what matters to us is what the result is we get for our client.
speaker-1 (35:11)
No, I love that. You know, you have to have that to focus on to continue to improve, ⁓ like you've been doing, open to learning, exploring new areas to to improve and and as things are changing too, you know. You you you have to ⁓ to continue to get the same results. So I you can't just build some law firm machine, right, with without the legal work. Yeah getting the good results.
speaker-0 (35:35)
You can but it catch it catches up with you. Right? It it catches up.
speaker-1 (35:39)
I love it man. So ⁓ I appreciate you coming on and share. What's the best way for folks to connect with you either personally or ⁓ just check out your your front
speaker-0 (35:48)
Obviously our our website provides access via phone and email and chat and messages which is Barquette Epstein.com B A R K E T one T E P S T E I N dot com. If you go there you'll see the lawyers, some of our cases and the areas that in which we practice.
speaker-1 (36:11)
Yeah, nice website too, by the way. I looked at it earlier. Well, everyone, thank you so much for tuning in, ⁓ listening to Bruce's story, learning more about his firm, you know, how he operates, how he thinks, and hope it's helpful to you. ⁓ I think there's a lot of great lessons in there. I love the sports analogy, in my opinion. ⁓ makes it make sense. And ⁓ sometimes that's all we need. So thank you everyone for tuning in to the show, as always. If you want a direct connection to Bruce
speaker-0 (36:14)
I appreciate it.
speaker-1 (36:40)
Like I always say, let me know. I can do a an intro email ⁓ and and try to figure out a way to to to make that happen. So but Bruce, thank you so much for sharing and ⁓ stay on with me. We'll be backstage here in a second. Everyone else, have a great day. Yeah. Thank you.
speaker-0 (36:56)
It was fine.
