Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:18] Speaker B: Most firms survive. The best ones scale.
Welcome to the Managing Partners Podcast, where law firm leaders learn to think bigger.
I'm Kevin. Daisy.
Let's jump in. What's up, everyone?
Welcome. Welcome to another episode of the Managing Partners Podcast. Thank you for tuning in. As always, thank you for listening to me and my guest and just appreciate everyone that tunes into this show today. I have Paul Seabrook here out of San Jose, California. And Paul loves business. He owns a law firm. I'm excited to kind of talk to Paul, learn more about his business, and of course, hope it helps some of you that are listening that are either just in the middle of your business, starting your business, thinking about starting a business, because we have a mixed bag of listeners on this show. So I'm excited to helping anybody out.
[00:01:07] Speaker A: There who can benefit from my story. So that's for sure.
[00:01:10] Speaker B: Yeah, that's what we're all about. Well, Paul, thank you. Please let us know more about you and introduce yourself and tell us about your firm and we'll, we'll just kind of take it from there.
[00:01:18] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm Paul Seabrook. I graduated in 2010 and, and bounced between Seattle and the bay area. In 2016, I opened this law firm. Originally I was working in bankruptcy law and decided in 2017 I needed to diversify and I added family law and found out I liked it so much that I just kind of decided to focus on it. And by 2020, things, things started to look good. Since 2021, I think I've grown my law firm about a thousand percent.
So it's awesome. It's been a wild sort of journey for me trying to experience this growth and manage all the things you have to manage while expanding the business. We're sort of ready to make 2026 a real big year for us. You know, we had to learn some things, had to learn some lessons. But next year is going to be really good.
[00:02:24] Speaker B: I love it. I love the, you know, the positivity, optimism. That's how I live my life, if I can, and, you know, thinking about the good things and better year next year and how can we improve what we did. That's great. It's awesome to have that success. So it sounds like, you know, you're doing bankruptcy. You just a family law. You like that. And, and you, you, you went all in on that. And I know from looking at your website and things like that, you know, you really focused on like high asset, high net worth. Do you kind of niche specifically in that area? Is that what where you found the Most success.
[00:02:53] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, I mean, people, you know, they've got big problems. You know, when you're dealing with high net worth divorce, you're gonna, you, you, you're absolutely gonna need help, you know, identifying the assets and making sure you get a fair value in them. Also dealing with, you know, minor children and how to navigate the challenges that people face when dealing with a high asset, high conflict divorce. It's very painful.
[00:03:17] Speaker B: Yeah. So I mean, obviously, you know, focusing on that, you know, that obviously more goes into a, a divorce like that than, you know, you're running the mill kind of divorces out there. So.
And it's kind of interesting, I see divorce firms that either just take anything ever under the sun, they're more like a volume kind of firm.
And separate from that. I see ones that, their brand, the way they carry themselves, they're very specific that they're, that they're focused on.
[00:03:49] Speaker A: Yeah. It becomes difficult, you know, you know, like when, when you start thinking about who you're going to serve and how you're going to serve them. It's, it's, it's really important to have all those things aligned, you know, in, in so, so that, I mean, it becomes difficult if you go into McDonald's and you want filet mignon. You know, that's not, you know, you're going to have issues there. If you go into, you know, a good steakhouse and you just want the cheap food, likewise, you're just going to run into problems. And so as a business, you want to try to find out who you serve and serve them to the best of your ability.
[00:04:23] Speaker B: Yeah, it's hard to do all of it. It's hard to do both of those things. And I know that in my business too, it's, you know, you can, yeah.
[00:04:31] Speaker A: You wish you could help everybody.
That, that, that makes, that certainly, you know, increases the challenges the business faces.
[00:04:40] Speaker B: Yeah, it's almost like from a business perspective, you know, you'd almost have like two different brands or two different firms because. Yeah. To your point, how everything's structured and built and how your staff and processes for a, you know, a small kind of run of the mill case versus like a real high, you know, complex divorce case.
If you're built for the high end, high asset, you're just not going to be efficiently, you're not, you're going to lose money probably on, on those other cases.
[00:05:09] Speaker A: Yeah. Smaller, simpler cases become more difficult to manage because, you know, they've, and it's really difficult because those people are in Trouble, you know, I mean, I, you know, the passion I get is from helping people who are in a toxic marriage reclaim their freedom. And it's, it's, it's real tough because there's a lot of people in bad situations that you want to be able to help. But again, if you start trying to, you know, hand out a McDonald's cheeseburger for 50, it, you know, the clients don't like it's not going to work. It's not really, you know, it doesn't get for a happy client.
[00:05:43] Speaker B: So do you have, I mean, I guess the best thing to do is to have good referral sources to say, hey, not a fit for us, I got so and so, or that would be a great fit for you and help you out. That way you're taking care of them. Hopefully they're getting the work, the service they need and you can continue to focus on, you know, what you're best at.
[00:06:05] Speaker A: Absolutely, absolutely.
[00:06:07] Speaker B: Yeah. That's great.
Tell me a little bit more. I guess the structure of your firm. You've had obviously great growth and success, especially recently.
What are some of the, you know, I guess what's the makeup of your firm? Earnings, things like that and just interested to get into more like what, what were kind of those moments of success or what things can you recall that you felt contributed to that?
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[00:07:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I think the biggest thing is, you know, so I've got five attorneys underneath me, my whole team is 20. And as we, I mean it's, it's tough because it's not ever any one thing, you know, I have had to learn hard lessons in every aspect of the business. Marketing, intake, sales. We've, you know, the lawyers and the lawyers, the work that we do has always been good. But you know, when you start to see this kind of growth that I've experienced, really trying to manage it becomes challenging and trying to figure out how to make sure that we manage the cases so that every client is, feels heard and can, you know, that we can make sure that they're progressing. That's probably been the biggest because when I kind of got that under control, that's when we started to have the happy clients who were getting what I wanted them to get.
[00:07:57] Speaker B: Yeah, that's all. I mean, yeah, it's as you scale, every client wants time, they want to be updated. Where's their case, what can they do to help with the case? So it takes a lot. And so, yeah, legal work is like.
[00:08:08] Speaker A: If, if, if you don't manage it effectively, then you're going to have unhappy clients who leave bad reviews. And then it's, it's going to be, you know, it makes challenging marketing your, your law firm more challenging. And so, yeah, there's a lot to consider, you know, and then, you know, like, the staff, do you have the right staff? And when you get to be my size, I mean, you probably experienced this. All of a sudden, California employment law comes into play. As far as, you know, how we've got to manage it. It's, it was a lot simpler when it was me and a couple of people and, you know, as you get more complicated, complex. It certainly adds to the learning opportunities I've had.
[00:08:49] Speaker B: Absolutely. I mean, yeah, to, you know, doing great legal work. I think a lot of lawyers, they all want and believe and they do good legal work and that's, that gets you to some, you know, a certain amount of leeway. But to run a law firm and to scale it and grow it, just doing good legal work is not enough. You have to have the systems, the processes.
[00:09:07] Speaker A: Yeah, that's where, you know, it's so important. The systems and the procedures, you know, the policies. It's, it's got to be written down. I get to. Last night I decided I was going to schedule a meeting with my team. That's sort of an impromptu meeting this afternoon just to cover, cover something that people, you know, I noticed that, that people, you know, give them an inch, they take a mile, that kind of thing. And we get to have a meeting today to get people back in line on what, you know, how we need to do things and why we need to do them the way we're doing.
[00:09:40] Speaker B: So something in that process is getting skipped or missed and you need to dial it back in. Yeah, yeah, it's going to happen. It's going to, it's going to continue to happen. Right. And as you grow, you know, you got. Your communication becomes harder. There's something like, it's like the project manager certification. My business partner's a project manager, whatever. But it's in there like as you add another person, two people, then three people, then four people, like, the, the communication gets so much more difficult and you have 20 people or 50 people.
It just makes things way more complex. And so companies can get really out of whack and very complex very quickly.
[00:10:16] Speaker A: That's what, you know, like, I think for a law firm, I noticed that I got complex. So I had, I was, I was pouring a lot into growth, and I had three lawyers working for me. And I noticed that, that when I tried to expand past that, I needed to bring on administrative support to help me with marketing, help me with hr, help me with business operations. And when I did that, the business got complex. And all of a sudden the marketing needed to work and the sales needed to work.
[00:10:47] Speaker B: Your overhead went up, the overhead goes.
[00:10:49] Speaker A: Up, and then the way the attorneys and the paralegals are delivering the service needed to work. And that's where I've had. I've, I've, I've learned a lot these last couple of years, you know, as, as I've tried to understand where, where the holes are in the business and what needs to be fixed. It's been a tremendous opportunity to learn, that's for sure.
[00:11:07] Speaker B: It sounds like. So have you any of it in.
[00:11:09] Speaker A: Law school, by the way? None of this came out.
[00:11:12] Speaker B: You only learned this stuff on the managing partners podcast right here. So it sounds like. So have you, have you fallen in love with the business side of law?
[00:11:20] Speaker A: Yes, I have. Yeah. I think I'm probably in line for a vacation here coming up. I could take a break, that's for sure. But, yeah, no, it's. It's fascinating to be able to think about how you get people to, you know, buy in to what you need them to buy into and, you know, holding standards. And there's just so much.
[00:11:39] Speaker B: There is so much. It's just so many things.
[00:11:41] Speaker A: It's.
[00:11:41] Speaker B: People always say, what's the secret? And it's like, well, there's no secret. There's no silver bullet. It's a lot of things that you have to work on.
[00:11:47] Speaker A: Yeah, there's no. I mean, if you got one thing wrong, it's. It can it, can it. It's not, you know, you gotta fix it. I feel like, you know, somebody. I get asked a lot, like, what's the one thing that you wish you knew? And there's, you know, I can't answer that question because I had, I, I had to experience it. I had to, I had to go through some tumultuous times, you know, in, in in looking at what I had created and looking at what I wanted. And what's the, what's the gap there? You know, as far as I'm sure I know, I, if, if, if I, if I knew how hard it was going to be, I would never have started. You know, that, that's, that's the truth of the matter.
[00:12:27] Speaker B: But it takes that hardship and lessons to be able to be good and to be able to address those things right and, and learn it really deeply enough to go, okay, I know what to do to fix this, but you can't just read a book one time and go, okay, I can do all this.
[00:12:42] Speaker A: No, it's probably, yeah, it's, it's experience, it's making mistakes and you know, just keep going, one foot in front of the other. That's how I've done it.
[00:12:51] Speaker B: Well, it sounds like you've done a great job. I, I, I use this analogy sometimes when I was having kids, I got two kids and all, all my friends that had already had kids, they want to tell you everything, I'm going to tell you everything and you're just going to listen to me and, and then you'll have it all figured out. Of course you ignore everything they say. And then when you have your second kid or your friends have kids, you're like, here's a book. You read this, do this, and they probably don't listen to any of it because they, they have to go into it themselves and then they come out. Second kid. They understand what to do.
[00:13:20] Speaker A: Second kid. Yeah, I've got two kids as well. The second, the first one, you know, it was everything you see is the first time you're seeing it. And that's a lot like running a law firm is, you know, all of a sudden, you know, you have a employee do something that you never, you never even thought you'd have to come across. And all of a sudden here we are. And I get to learn this now too. And it's an interesting never ending learning experience, that's for sure.
[00:13:46] Speaker B: Yeah, and it's easy, I think, for, no, it never is. I mean, every week it's something. But that's good. You have to fall in love with that part or have fun with it or you're, you're not going to be in a good place. I think if you just, you're up for the challenge, like you're excited about next year in 2026 and where you're at now, that's the mindset you have to have, or you're just not, you're not going to be in a good place.
[00:14:06] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's, it's, I think it's important because you've got to be able to, if, if, if you're gonna, if you're gonna grow a business, you gotta learn all the parts of it. You gotta learn how to make, how to improve upon it, you know, and you get to be my, my size. And I think it really, like, if I had any advice for people out there trying to, like, for law firms, if you're trying to go from small to big. For me, if it was three attorneys, then crossing over into more than that is when it became so complex that I needed to bring in people who knew what they were doing in order to help me. You know, I mean, there's, there's people who work for me that know a lot more than me. And, you know, that's, you know, I initially, I hired some, some folks who were learning on the job, and that cost me a lot.
[00:14:53] Speaker B: Yep, that, that's a very important lesson right there. I've done this too, is you try to bring people out of school or college or someone that, you know, just has a little bit of experience, you plug them in and they, they can't help you get to that next step. They might actually cause more problems. So, so I think, yeah, it's, it's hard to do because you're like, okay, I gotta hire a bunch of people that don't bring in any revenue, they don't bring in any money, and you're not sure if it's the right decision or if they're the right fit or the right people or there's just so many complexities there. Like.
[00:15:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:22] Speaker B: And the right culture, I'll tell you.
[00:15:24] Speaker A: You know, like, one of the fascinating things about that part of it is, is if you're bringing in somebody to do a job that I don't know how to do, how do you hold them accountable to that job? That was, that was something, you know, like the first time or two I tried to do this like I did. I didn't even know what I wanted from that. All I knew is that I needed help in operations. And trying to find somebody you trust and you trust has that knowledge and experience and is going to help you out was, was a challenge for sure. Yeah.
[00:15:54] Speaker B: Yeah. It's a risk. And it's again, once you get to that size, I, I, I have a lot of business owners that I know personally that tell me I made more money and I was happier when I was just by myself.
[00:16:02] Speaker A: It's like.
[00:16:04] Speaker B: And you know, and, and so yeah, you, you cross a line at some point where it's like, okay, this is not about me. Obviously. I got team, I got, they have family. You know, it just gets so much bigger and, and then it's easier to fail as you've scaled up in some cases because there's a lot more risk, a lot more overhead if leads aren't coming in and sales aren't closing. Yeah, you have a lot more there to be responsible for that market.
[00:16:30] Speaker A: Things is really difficult to get right. I tell you, it's a never ending process.
You know, what do you do to attract enough leads? Enough high quality leads.
[00:16:43] Speaker B: Yeah. And you got new platforms, you got AI Search, you got Google, you changing stuff all the time.
[00:16:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Always gotta be on top of it and you gotta have somebody who knows. I mean, that was, you know, you go through a thousand percent growth. That was so fascinating for me because, you know, obviously when I, when I started on that journey of growth, I had marketing that was working. And then I noticed as the growth kind of continued, the marketing had to change. And it didn't. And it didn't, you know, I mean, it has now. I, you know, like, it's so fascinating as you go, go through this journey on business as far as, you know, who, you know, who do you want to attract and how do you attract them.
[00:17:26] Speaker B: Yeah. It doesn't stay static. Right.
As you grow and have different things, you know, different clientele, you know, you're in a different position, your brand grows, authority grows and you can also pull off other types of marketing that a startup firm or a small firm.
[00:17:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:41] Speaker B: Can't.
[00:17:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:42] Speaker B: So you get some advantages. You know, it's, I think there's, you know, obviously we, we do marketing. There's like when you're, when you're starting out, you got to pump a ton of money in a bigger percentage of your budget into awareness and lead gen and all that stuff. And. But as you, you know, as firms get bigger, like a Morgan and Morgan or like some of these big law firms out there, like they put all their money into brand because they're so recognized now. It's just.
[00:18:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:07] Speaker B: Keeping that brand going. But they don't have to pay pay per click and they don't have to do these other things. So it's kind of like this life cycle, if you will. And I think that a lot of firms try to like skip or go into channels and areas that they're just not prepared for or they can't afford or they just don't have the long, you know, they don't have the brand there long enough to. To be successful.
[00:18:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I can totally tell. You know, like, like, as, you know, like, we're embarking, we're going to have to embark on some more brand marketing. You know, as, as we continue to grow, you know, we're, we're growing. There's a couple of law firms in the, in the Bay Area that are bigger than me still. And, you know, I'm trying to chase.
[00:18:43] Speaker B: Them down, coming for them. Paul is coming for you. Watch out.
[00:18:47] Speaker A: Yep, yep, I'm, I'm, I'm here. That's for sure.
[00:18:50] Speaker B: I love it, man. That's awesome. I love everything you're doing. What is the best way for folks to, I guess, find your firm, Check it out. What's the best way to connect with you personally? If I got other lawyers that are like, hey, I love your story. Like, love to talk with you and learn more. What's the best way?
[00:19:03] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, the website, you know, the Google my name, you know, I pretty sure I show up there. Email is just Paul at Seabrook Law Offices and happy to talk with people. You know, I'm part of a network of a lot of attorneys who are growing. I always, always happy to, you know, talk ideas and give tips, you know, help. Help people out.
[00:19:24] Speaker B: That right there, you know, having a network or a mastermind or a group of other attorneys, someone else to talk to, especially other owners, is so important, Critical. Yeah, it's pretty lonely otherwise.
[00:19:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah.
[00:19:38] Speaker B: Unless all your friends and family are entrepreneurs.
[00:19:40] Speaker A: Entrepreneurs. Yeah. No, that doesn't happen.
[00:19:42] Speaker B: Yeah. So it's hard to, you know, take that home or, or talk to your normal friends and if they don't run a business, it's.
[00:19:48] Speaker A: Yeah, they don't get it. They don't understand it. Yeah.
[00:19:50] Speaker B: They just say, hey, you're lucky.
[00:19:52] Speaker A: If they only knew. If they only knew.
[00:19:55] Speaker B: Everyone listening is so lucky. And it was. Came easy, right?
[00:19:58] Speaker A: Blood, sweat and tears. That's for sure.
[00:20:00] Speaker B: Oh, man, I love it. All right, well, I appreciate you, Paul, coming on to share what you're doing. Excited to see you grow, Excited to see your success.
Hopefully it's motivational to everyone listening here, especially the divorce attorneys that are tuning in. And you can get it done. You can have the growth thousand percent. I mean, that's awesome.
[00:20:19] Speaker A: Yeah, that was. It's, it's, it's, you know, be careful out there, guys. A lot can happen. That's. Thanks for the time, Kevin. I appreciate it. It was great chatting.
[00:20:28] Speaker B: You as well. You stick on with me for just a sec. And everyone else, thank you again for tuning in, and we'll see you on the next episode.
