Leadership Shifts for Growth and Culture

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Not being average because average is the enemy. Average means you just did enough. Are we here to just do enough? When you were born, Kevin, did the doctor slap you and say to your mom, hey, you got an average kid. He's gonna be average. Welcome. He's gonna be an average kid. No, that would never be good enough. You should never accept. [00:00:32] Speaker B: Foreign. Survive the best ones scale. Welcome to the Managing Partners Podcast, where law firm leaders learn to think bigger. I'm Kevin Daisy. Let's jump in. Well, hello, everyone. This is Kevin Daisy. Welcome to another episode of the Managing Partners podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in and listening to the show. Always trying to find great guests from all walks to come, share their stories and what they're doing. Maybe it's something that you can pick up and use, maybe something you relate with, or maybe it's just someone you can connect with. So we have Brett Harrison on the show today. Personal injury out of New York. But I always let my guests kind of introduce themselves, tell us a little more about their firm. And today we're going to be kind of talking about a few things, but me and Brett see eye to eye on things like culture and people. And so I'm excited to get into that conversation. So, Brett, welcome. [00:01:29] Speaker A: My name is Brett Harrison from the Harrison Law Group. That's the boring part. We're out of Melville, Long Island, Melville, New York, which is about, depending on New York traffic, 45 minutes to an hour from Manhattan, and we're close to all the five boroughs and so forth. So we move at a pretty quick pace that New York minute, I suppose. But I'm happy to be here and hopefully I can share some knowledge from things that have change me and have made a difference. And you learn that through a lot of times, painful revelations from things messing up and actually trying to be accountable and looking at yourself in the mirror and saying, okay, what can we do better? You know? [00:02:12] Speaker B: Yeah, amen to that. Best lessons, you know, are from pain, [00:02:16] Speaker A: because you don't forget those, Kevin. You know what I'm saying? And you start to realize it's just part of being an entrepreneur. Being an entrepreneur, which, I mean, owning your own business, not working, not working in your business, not getting. Not just being a salaried employee, but really, really, you know, being an entrepreneur and a business owner, it's. It's like a roller coaster. You go up, you go down. It's not for everybody. Some people like the. The merrygo round, very little ups and downs. So they work for companies, which is fine, but I like I think I like the excitement most of the time. Being an owner. [00:02:52] Speaker B: Yeah, you never know what's going to happen. You got the good days, the bad days. It's the journey, right? So you got to like the journey, which means you got to like the hard stuff, too, you know, that comes with it. So [00:03:05] Speaker A: it's the unexpected, the unexpected directions. And this is where I think I'll show my age a little bit, I guess, with this concept. But I don't like the concept of leadership. I really prefer to call it leader shifts. And the reason I say that, Kevin, is I like that there's a good reason for that. You hear the concept of world leader, right? You never hear the concept of world boss, because boss leads from the back. When you're a leader, I think you're up front for a reason, and that means you see things others don't. So I think, as such, as the leader, it's not about leadership. It's about leaderships knowing when to shift. So I think being an effective leader is not being stoic, but always keeping your eyes open. What's in front of you, behind you, your vision. And I think you have to look at it and say, do we need to make a shift? Because you can't just keep doing the same thing year in, year out. It's like you have to be progressive, I think, and I think there's great ways in doing it. So I think it all starts with being a leader shift. And the reason you're out front is because you see things that others don't. And. And you'll know when to shift. Go right, go left. Think about an airplane, Kevin. It's. And I'm going to introduce another concept that really gets under my skin a little bit. Everything now is about speed. And I really. I think that's overused because I think it's about intentional direction. And what I mean by that in speed and leadership and leader shifts is think about it. If I go on a train and I go the wrong way and I'm going 100 miles an hour, I'm that much further, I'm in the wrong direction. Now, if I'm an airline pilot for any commercial airline, and I go one or two degrees off my path, I'm in another country or another state. So it's about. It's not the speed. It's about the intentional action that you take, because the more intentional you are, I think the more that focus will get you there. Sometimes going fast isn't best. [00:05:13] Speaker B: Hmm. I like that a lot. I mean, I Can relate to all that, too. You know, I had a gentleman, and I could relate this in a lot of different ways. But I love the letter shift because we're constantly making changes in our business, and it's. It's every week, you know, and I think. To think that you're not going to have any change, or if your. Your people, your staff think that or they don't like change, we're the opposite. If you don't like change, you probably shouldn't work here because most people don't. [00:05:38] Speaker A: Different ways to do things change because it's uncomfortable. Most people would rather suffer more, suffer more comfortably than have the key to the change. [00:05:46] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we embrace it. It's. It's going to happen. We got to find better ways to do it. And I love your point about. It doesn't have to be always the speed and fast, because speed and fast, that can break things. It's. And can you lose people over it? You can lose clients over. So I. I think speed in areas. You know, there's a lot of talk around intake for PI. Like, you have to be quick, you have to be as fast as possible. But if you're not empathetic and you don't have the other things nailed down with how that's happening, then you're not going to sign the clients. Yeah. [00:06:18] Speaker A: Because most people make decisions based on. Humans make decisions based on emotions. How did you make them feel? Do they feel comfortable with you? Do you feel enthusiastic? Remember, you're always. I don't know what you call it, but there's always some type of vibration that you have with somebody. You're. You're emoting something to them. So you're affecting people. So they hear it in your voice, in your tone, in your energy, in which they may interpret to be confidence, not confidence. [00:06:48] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:06:49] Speaker A: But I think it doesn't just start with me. It does start with me as the leader, but it's about constantly training my staff. And I think. I think I've learned that over my years from obviously the mistakes we all make, whether it's keeping someone too long, how it's affecting the staff, and what does it really mean, you know, are you really in touch with your staff and how do you use them? I think perhaps to me, one of the most underutilized asset in a law firm is the staff. And what I mean by that, for me, a lot of times, like you, Kevin, I'm just running to catch up to where I should have been last week. So. So sometimes I think Like, I'll say to my staff, well, what can we do? Every quarter I'll bring them all in and we sit, we have lunch, and I'll say, what do you think we could do better? Like, from a. What, what. What do you think of some of the hold things that are holding us up with step with clients in the process? You know, and you got to remember now, I have all different age groups, so they see it very differently. Yeah, you know what? I see how long something should take or not. I don't even think about it. They may say, no, don't. I'll give them an idea. And they're like, no, that's not going to work. Because I'm like, great. I love the feedback because I'm not the one on the front line. And they'll say, they'll say, what we're noticing is this. And I'll say, what do you think we could do to maybe speed up this process? And they'll say, the settlement process or the litigation process or something that will make our common problems that we see that clients are always saying or they're concerned with, and they'll each have a different perspective. And then we'll go to, what can we do better in marketing? What are some ideas? Now they all look at social media differently and they'll say, oh, I follow this person because I love the way this attorney does this. Or I love this. Why don't you think about doing this? So when you utilize your staff, most people hire staff and set it and forget it. Kind of like it's done. And really, no, the asset is, is the constant training and the constant feedback. And here's the important thing. This is what's underneath all of this, besides the great ideas, is that they feel like they matter and what they say makes a difference and that they're not. You don't just call them in to say, I don't like what you did. Now stop that, Stop that. You're not the damn principal. You have to credit. People say, great job. And here's another thing. Give people a high five. You know why? That transfer of power and energy as opposed to, hey, good job, Kevin. No people like that. And you should, you should credit people for making a difference. So I think, I think utilizing your staff is so important in positive and negative ways that you've done wrong, you know, and they have to feel comfortable calling you out on it and saying, you know, we need to change this. Just because we've done it this way all the time doesn't mean it can't be changed or better and more efficient. I think the util. And that's why hiring the right staff is so, so key. And I personally, I hire for attitude that'll get me the altitude. Because most things I can train people, but if they have the wrong attitude, it takes one person to mess up everything. [00:10:24] Speaker B: I talk about this a lot, especially on the show. I think how important culture is to us. And all my success is due to my team, my staff. And what you're saying, you know, what you're saying is really, you know, you hire good people, but you also, you're giving them the platform to be able to speak up, to say something, to give input. You want to have a team of problem solvers as a leader. You don't want to be like, hey, I made this decision and now we're doing this. [00:10:51] Speaker A: No, it can't be a dictatorship. I think it's got a yes, your name is on the door. But a lot of people just hire to fill a seat. And I, I have a problem with that because it depends on what your standard is. If your standards this, but you hire this, you'll never get to your standard. You're only going to get to what you hire. But it's not just hiring, it's how you consistently train them. And for me, when you walk into our office or actually where the paralegals are and the staff is, I don't have a picture of Abe Lincoln or George Washington crossing the Delaware. I have in big brass letters, success is a team sport. Because when we win, we win all together. I don't care if you're an attorney, the reception, pre lit paralegal, office manager, no one's any more important than the other. Would just have a different seat on the bus and a different role. And I think another thing that I will give a tip for is when you hire people, don't hire people for what you think they are. Hire people for what you think they can be. And watch, because it's about believing in people. And if you show them that you believe in them, watch what it'll do for your business. And I have found that that's so important, you know. And I also think I'll give you another tip that has worked miracles for me, is that for each person, don't just hire people and say, well, they have the experience. You got to train them, you got to give them. I do it over a couple of weeks. They go with a lot of different people and in all different parts, so they see how it fits in I don't just say, here, go, because they feel like this, like this guy, and I'm like this. Everyone else is like this, right. And it's not fair. How so? What are they going to do? They're going to go back to what they know, not the way you want it. And you have to show them why, and they have to. When I hire people, I hire it based on my values and what we stand for as a firm. [00:12:52] Speaker B: Same. [00:12:52] Speaker A: And because in our office, when you walk in the reception, it says hope on an angle, and it says help one person every day. And the reason. And the reason we do it that way is because we're addicted to hope. We give people hope that it's possible. And when you show people, especially in an injury, when they didn't anticipate it, and the effect on their family, on their job, everything, because they didn't anticipate it and plan for it, you have to take that pressure off their shoulders and say, we got you. It's possible. But in order for it to be possible, I need to understand what you're going through, how it's affected you. And once you make it about the people that you're representing, you'll see a big difference because that's how you have to plan the strategy. And it's about the process, and the strategy will get to the result. That's what I call most firms, I think are. Call them Copernicus firms. The world revolves around the attorney, and it's about them first. So they only focus on result when you make it about the client first. And that's how you plan the strategy, and you show them that you're connecting. So on the other wall, while we have hope on one part of the reception wall, the other part says care, connect, commit. And that's how you. That's how you become addicted to hope and how you help one person every day. You care, connect, and commit with that person. That's the difference between relational and transactional, in my opinion. [00:14:19] Speaker B: And if you just had a staff that was there for a paycheck, why would they care to carry that mission out? Why would they care to take the time to be empathetic and listen to the client? Because they're just a seat on the bus with. They have no interest. And everything you said, too, with what you're creating there, or what you have created is you've created. I talk about this often, mental ownership. So your staff might not have equity in your law firm, but they have mental ownership of the culture. Right. And they protect it. And they don't want to have other staff that don't fit within it. Right. [00:14:53] Speaker A: So you have to be quick enough to get rid of them, the people that don't fit in. Because if you want to have A and B players, oral A players, and you allow a C player to be the accepted standards, then the A and B feel flustered and you're wasting your time focusing on the C and D plays. You should be making that the A play is even better. And I think. And I think the biggest thing for us is that in my office is we show people at each position what it means to win each day, how to master the mundane of each day. What are the. Not 100 things, what are the four or five things that we must get done in this position each day to win the day. Because when you win the day and you win the next day, you win the week, you win the month, you win the quarter, you win, you win the year. And what does winning mean? Winning means you feel good about yourself. You're winning for the client, and you're winning and you're winning for. For the law firm. And that's how winning is done. It's not. It's not. Use a phrase that my dad used to say, complexity makes you sound smart. Simplicity makes you money. [00:16:08] Speaker B: It's true. [00:16:10] Speaker A: And I. And I think you really need to focus on your staff so much and constantly train them, and constantly. I think you need to invest in them and stop saying, well, this is the way everybody else does it. Because just because everybody else does it that way doesn't mean you should do it that way. Or it's just easy. Because if everybody else did it that way, and you could always find the naysayers, Most people, in my opinion, including family members, are seeing believers. They won't believe it what you say until they see it done. And I think that that's. That's one of the biggest problems in our industry is you. You have to feel free and be creative, be yourself. Everybody else is taken. Right. I mean, think about it. We're so concerned with what everybody says. And here's the thing. 80% of the people that you think are thinking about you aren't. [00:17:03] Speaker B: That's true. [00:17:03] Speaker A: And 20% glad at you and not them going through that issue. So don't focus on them. They're not paying your bills. They're not taking care of your staff and their family. So I think there's, there's, there's great ways in which you can be a great leader and you don't need all the credit. What difference does it make? I'd rather credit my staff because that's why that, that framework of success is a team sport. So that is one thing that I look at. And I give benefits to people that most people won't. On their birthday they get a check for $350 from me. And the stipulation is you have to spend it on yourself. Why? Because a lot of people, whether they're single parents or married parents with kids, never spend on themselves. So, you know, give people a benefit, show that you care. I have people that start at 9:30 instead of 9 or 8 because I want them to put their kid on the bus and not run to work because you don't get back that time. You can't buy back your time. And I want you to be a parent because that's who you are too. And I don't want you to. Right. I think you need to be able to, you know, be able to be a parent as well and not feel guilty that I'm not around. So I also close my office the last between eight and 12 days of the year. And I pay everybody. I want them to spend quality time with their family. If they're going away, they should be able to leave a little earlier, save a little bit, get a chance to do a little shopping before the kids or everybody else is off. You know, decompress. [00:18:46] Speaker B: Love that. We do a stand down period for about two weeks at the end of the year. [00:18:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:50] Speaker B: Where if you got some stuff to do, do it. No meetings. Absolutely none. [00:18:54] Speaker A: I just closed the office. Yeah, yeah, I closed the office. [00:18:58] Speaker B: Well, virtual. So, you know. [00:19:00] Speaker A: Right. Because here's. [00:19:01] Speaker B: People still like to get some work [00:19:02] Speaker A: done, but they print money, they don't print people. [00:19:05] Speaker B: Yeah. I think part of the fun with the team and as a leader is coming up solutions, coming up with new ideas, doing something different, you know, than everyone else. I think that's, that's part of the fun to say, hey, everyone said to do it this way. We came up with our own version of the staff has some ownership in that or it might be their idea completely. I think that is the little quirks of each business. [00:19:31] Speaker A: You know what, Even if it doesn't work, you still learn something from it. [00:19:35] Speaker B: Oftentimes it don't work. [00:19:37] Speaker A: Right. I mean, you know, if you're waiting for the. You're waiting. Everyone's always waiting. It's not the right time. And I hate this concept. I'll do it someday. Well, I checked the calendar. I never saw A day of the week called Someday. So I feel like people are always waiting to for the perfect time. The only thing you could do perfect is nothing. And I always equate and I tell the staff and I want to get a picture of this which I, I have to find it again is. You ever see there's like a wall and they have a ladder against it, right? And one has two perfect rungs, one like this and one like this. Except the walls up here, but they have two perfect rungs. The other ladder is one perfect rung. Then one's kind of on an angle, then one's on a different angle but it gets you to the top of the wall. So and it's important to note that, that sometimes you have to understand getting it done, you know, by me climbing that wall several times and you still waiting. I'll have failed many more times to success before you even get to the top of the wall. [00:20:43] Speaker B: 100. I mean, yeah, just taking action is, you know. You know I just got back from the NTL conference, right? You thought about that earlier with me come back. What'd you learn? What are you going to apply? What can you tell your staff? Hey, I, I saw, I heard, I took notes. And then what can we put into action? You know, if you don't do anything, [00:21:03] Speaker A: well, that's it, you know, I mean knowledge is great, but it's applied knowledge. And like I often have that discussion, I'll say it that way with some clients where they'll say, hey, this is the value of my case and this is what Chat GPT told me. And I'll say, okay. I said, as ChatGPT doesn't have the experience and exposure that I've had for over 30 years, I can't teach you that anymore. So you're not even thinking about other issues which should be into the ChatGPT. But I'll say to them, here's a better example of what you just did. I told him I could learn all about heart surgery putting in a pacemaker from Friday to Monday morning. I can read everything and have knowledge. It doesn't mean I'm going to be able to put a pacemaker in my, my father in law on Tuesday. There's knowledge and applied knowledge and an experience and exposure. I said, you're hiring me for the experience and the exposure. Too many people put a even clients, they say, why should I get a lawyer? Why should I not get a lawyer if I. What do they call lawyering up? I think they call it. I said, well, okay, you're focusing on cost as opposed to value. What's the value of what I do for you? It frees you up. In all this time, you're getting the true value instead of just taking, for example, I just got in a car accident and two days later the defendant insurance company offered me 2,000, but I got them up to 5,000. That's what some clients will say, I think I want to take it. Why should I give you a piece? I said, well, I said, there's a re. And then I have to explain to them the reason they're doing it, what they're possibly leaving on the board, on the table. What's the true value? What do I bring for them? Letting them go on, you know, really looking at it from a much different perspective. The true value of their injury. Not just now, but what about the future? It can go into a whole bunch of things. And you have to understand the difference between value and cost. And I think we do that also as employers. I've seen many say, well, this person caught, this person cost me X dollars. And I was like, is it the cost of the value? What are you getting from them? Are they. Is the what you call cost to hire this employee give you a greater value? Stop thinking about, don't jump over dollars to pick up nickels, so to speak. [00:23:29] Speaker B: We did that early on in my business. We would try to find folks that are green, no experience right out of college, you know, great, great folks. But they, at some point you realize, you know, for me, hiring some of the best talented folks, players that might cost three times, that have been the best decisions that we've ever made. [00:23:48] Speaker A: Well, it's kind of like that, that famous song, the Ship of fools where they have the fools all lead, take, run the ship and it crashes because there's no true captain. You just have a ship of fools. So you never, like. For me, I brought in my staff this year before the end of the year, and I said, my goal this year is for everyone. I don't care what position you are to make in the six figures. Yeah, but nobody pays that. But I don't care what anybody pays because if we're, if we hit our goals and I'm making a substantial. Why aren't they. They're vested in it. So do I. The more money you make, I'm happy if I can make all your dreams come true. And, and that's another thing. You really should speak with each of your, each of your staff and find out what they personally want financially, professionally, physically. What are Their dreams and goals. It's not always about money. Sometimes it's about time, it's about maybe making less, but working four days a week. And I think that's what you, as a visionary and a leader is you have the ability to make other dreams, people's dreams come true and the steps that they're going to need. [00:24:54] Speaker B: Yeah, we're, I love that. We are big on that. And yeah, think about this. Anyone listening? Like for one, they're working for you. Is it a great place to work? Do you give them a platform to be able to share and problem solve and learn? Or is there a platform for them to make more money no matter what position they're in? And then does their goals fit within what you're doing? Or are they able to fit into what you're doing? But also you don't know what their goals are. You don't even have that conversation. Well, you got to understand every, every week with every, Are they, do they [00:25:26] Speaker A: have the right mindset for it? [00:25:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Do they? What are the goals? Sometimes I'll have some younger folks be like, well, I don't really have any goals because I don't, you know, they don't even think they should have the ability to have goals. It's like, and so you, you, you can teach them, help them like you should have goals. Let's talk about those. We do one on one meetings with our staff every week to kind of help, you know. [00:25:46] Speaker A: Right. And there are times you realize you can't make a cat an elephant. [00:25:49] Speaker B: That's true. [00:25:49] Speaker A: Or, or another way of saying is you can't shine a turd. [00:25:54] Speaker B: On the flip side though, you, you know, we listen for like new hires. Like, you know, we're, we're approaching 70 full time folks, so we got quite a bit of people. And yet we maintain culture and, and all the things that we've do as [00:26:06] Speaker A: you get larger and larger. [00:26:07] Speaker B: Yeah, but if you have a great culture and a good system in place and everyone there wants to be there, they hire people and then they groom them and you just have a lot of good people. So it's, it's, you can maintain that. So far I've seen it. But you know, sometimes people come in and say, hey, you're going to be in this position. This is what you came in for. You know, what do you really want to see yourself? And sometimes they're kind of like, well, I'd like to be the CEO of the company one day. You know, okay, that's their ambition. Is it possible of Course it could be. So, you know, it's. Do they see themselves being able to have a career, you know, with you, with your firm and if you're not growing and you're not changing and doing the things that like you're saying, Brett, like then they don't really see a long term play for them. They don't. They might not be invested in your firm, they might not care. Right. [00:26:53] Speaker A: You know what I do with them when I talk to them after my staff interviews them first, not me. [00:26:58] Speaker B: Yeah, same. [00:26:59] Speaker A: Because if they can't find amongst an issue with some of them, I then will take them into the, into the kitchen and I'll say, do you use a Korok machine? You know, most, you know, the K cup machine? [00:27:12] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just had my little espresso when [00:27:14] Speaker A: we were first chatting and I say, would you agree with me that's average? Meaning? Meaning a lot. Most people have it. It's good enough, basically. It's good enough. Right. I'm not saying which K cup you use, I don't really care. But it's generally good enough. It gets the job done. And I said, but good enough, which is average. And average to me is the top of bad and the bottom of good. Right? And that's just average. And I said, good enough or you'll never have enough. And I said, we are not about even to the detail of what coffee, because coffee matters. When you have a cup of coffee and your staff has a cup of coffee, there's a reason you don't go to this delicatestin and you go to this coffee shop. I said, I make sure you have the best coffee. It grinds the beans itself. You guys pick out whatever beans you want. And I said, now let's taste the difference. Let's make the K cup and let's make this. I'll say this is good enough. But are you enjoying this? I said, it's those little things that define your standards. And I said, that's what we're about here, is not being average. Because average is the enemy. Average means you just did enough. Are we here to just do enough? When you were born, Kevin, did the doctor slap you and say to your mom, hey, you got an average kid. He's going to be average. Welcome. He's going to be an average kid. No, that would never be good enough. You should never accept average. They don't make statutes of average people. They just don't. You were not, I believe personally, we were all put on this earth to be phenomenal. But it's work. It's hard work. It's like you said, action, disciplined habits and action. And it must be intentional. So do whatever you do, but do it well. And also train the people. Surround yourself. If you surround yourself with fives, then you'll be the next five. If you have five, five, fives, you'll be the six. Five. You surround yourself with people that are nines and tens. Higher thermostat. Surround yourself. Always wanting to be better. You don't want to be the smartest person in the room. A lot of the people I hire are much smarter than me at what they need to do. I know which lane I'm best at or that I enjoy. And sometimes you have to hire one person for one thing. And you see, wow, this person is great. I see their potential. And you show people that and you tell people that, that you believe in them. That you see they could even do more. Watch, watch, watch. When you show people you believe in them. Watch how that helps your practice. [00:29:46] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I love it. You know, it's. This works how we run things here and what Bread's doing. I was. I had a call this morning. We had two new employees start today. So we. We did a video call. And, you know, I was just like, hey, Kevin, one of the founders, I've never met him yet. I was like, dumbest guy in the room. You got a bunch of a players on the call and, you know, welcome to the team. So it's. Yeah, I've given up on trying to be smart at anything at this point. Like, I have all the people around me to do it all. So I'm just a talking head at this point. But it's a great place to be. [00:30:17] Speaker A: I think you're the visionary because you see things that others don't, because it's your vision. And now you're just putting the pieces that need to be moved around. You don't need to be. It seems clearly with 70 people, you don't need to be doing everything because [00:30:36] Speaker B: the more they can take away from me, the better. [00:30:38] Speaker A: Right. And once you figure out the highest value of your time, that's the key. You might only have to do two or three things each day, but if you do that and max out on that. But I also think, you know, one of the big better things that most people don't do as a leader, you got to work on yourself, too. It's got to stem from the inside out. Yeah, you have to be better than you were last year. Otherwise, last year was a failure. Not monetarily. Just saying that. I'm just saying you as a person know, what can you do better? You have to hold yourself accountable to yourself first. [00:31:18] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, you got a big role and. And you know, you. You can't. It's easy, I think, as a leader entrepreneur to like, just all too busy and just focus on the company and maybe all on your people. But, you know, excellent point. That if you're not working on yourself, they need to see that you're getting better. They don't want to see that you're just slacking off and, you know, or you're just kind of do the. The bare minimum. [00:31:42] Speaker A: I think also, you know, I hate when people imprison me as I'm a lawyer first. I wasn't always a lawyer. I'm a father, a husband, a brother, a friend that also has that. That lawyer is just a vehicle that I use for my life's work to be what I call phenomenal or to what, in my terms of success. [00:32:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:03] Speaker A: You know. Right. And you know, you have a lot of responsibilities, not just for your families, but in your case, all the other 70 that work for you. [00:32:11] Speaker B: Yeah. It's a big weight. A lot of responsibilities. [00:32:13] Speaker A: Yeah. People don't see what. What that's like. They only see the successes. They don't see when Kevin's up and concerned about this, about this, or, you know, he's a. You're at an event for your family and you're really not that present because you're. Your mind is, you know, on something else where. I know my wife has said to me, hello, are you here? Did you hear what I said? Has that ever happened to you, Kevin? [00:32:39] Speaker B: That's happened a couple times. I've gotten a lot better. [00:32:41] Speaker A: Say yes, because you've made a conscious effort. [00:32:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:45] Speaker A: But, you know, the one thing I will say is, the biggest thing I've learned now as I've gotten older is you make money to have experiences with the people you love in the family. So that that's what people remember, because you tie emotion to those experiences. Money is not meant to just be, you know, saved, put saved squarely and not used. You have to use it first also for the general good of the world and the public and what you can contribute and give away to and be generous and lead by example, but you also do it to share the experiences so that when you're gone, people say, oh, I remember when Kevin, we did this. We went here, we went here. People don't remember how much the steak cost. [00:33:31] Speaker B: You know, 100%. [00:33:34] Speaker A: And I think as you, you know, I don't know how old. Do you have children, Kevin? [00:33:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I do. I got two. I'm 14 and 12. [00:33:40] Speaker A: Right. You know, and there'll be a time they might not want to be around you as much, or maybe they're at that point. [00:33:46] Speaker B: I think they're already there. [00:33:48] Speaker A: And. But you know what? But you know what? They will remember those special times that you guys did do something. It's not always what it cost you. Yeah. And so your time becomes so valuable, I think, you know, same with, you [00:34:01] Speaker B: know, same with staff. Like, you know, just seeing nice things, the high fives, letting them bring tape, you know, ideas to the table, and solutions. Like, all those little things add up, and that's what makes them want to be there and say, hey, working for Brett is amazing. And when they tell a friend, if you're hiring, you need to come work at this firm, you know, they're going to share that so well. [00:34:22] Speaker A: And that's something I love when they come to work with me after having [00:34:25] Speaker B: a bad experience, which is probably more common, I think. [00:34:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, you hear about some of the things and the way people talk, and I think you should be careful, because people matter. Your staff matters. And too many people treat their staff like, hey, they got a paycheck, and that's such a bad way of looking at things. [00:34:44] Speaker B: Yeah. I promise. Anyone listening? If you are thinking, hey, they just got a job, so that's. That's good enough. Everything in your business will be that much harder. Things will break way more often, and you won't understand what's going on. Hiring charter. You don't have a bunch of people that want to work for you. You always have to go looking or pay a recruiter or go on. Indeed, if you do all the things that Brett's saying and what I've. I've shared many times. No. No problems. People line up to work there. You're going to deal with issues no matter what. But imagine having a team that cares to solve those problems with that, with or without you having to ask them to, and then how that reflects to your client when they call. [00:35:21] Speaker A: Well, yeah, I think I like to see when I look at reviews and what clients say, and I think that's the important thing. Like, for example, we're about to mail out Valentine's Day cards to our clients because we love our clients. Why do I have to just do. No one does that. I'm doing it because I've never heard [00:35:39] Speaker B: of anyone doing that. That's that's new, right? [00:35:42] Speaker A: Without my clients, I could be the best attorney, but without a clientele, I don't have anything. So don't you think you should show them you love and appreciate them for their confidence in you and your firm? And if you do it right, they'll appreciate that. Hey, they remembered me. I wasn't the biggest case. Well, your case wasn't small to you, was it? It had an impact on you. And maybe. Maybe they'll refer one or two cases to you, maybe they won't. But like you, Kevin, you get a lot of your clientele through just referrals and just exposure and meeting people. You're not even necessarily trying to have a client. You just. Just being you. [00:36:21] Speaker B: Yeah. You asked. Yeah. You talked about, you know, what's the. The most valuable thing I could be doing? This is it. You know, have a conversation with Brett, getting to meet him and then talking about how we do run our companies and how I can learn from what he just shared here and applying that. And I had a gentleman earlier today. He's like, kevin, Kevin, I. You know, I had this AI company in legal space, and he reached out to me and said, how do I get in front of people like you've done? I was like, well, I was like, I've been doing this podcast for four plus five years. It's not an overnight thing. It's consistently talking and having great conversations with no strings attached and literally wanting to meet Brett and understand his story and listen to him. Brett may or may not ever refer me or mention me to anybody, but over the last four or five years, it's stemmed into so many good relationships, opportunities, referral partners refer. And it's not overnight, but, no, there's no quick way to do that. [00:37:15] Speaker A: Also, ideas that you learn, and you're like, well, I'm going to implement this this way. And I would have never thought about it, but because I was exposed to it. So I think. I think it's become a little bit of a lost art. And a lot of questions I ask people when I meet them is, hey, what are you most excited about in your business? Or what are you. Your biggest challenge? [00:37:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Because [00:37:40] Speaker A: maybe I can help you. I'm not in competition with you. I'm in competition with myself. I don't. I wish everybody well. I. You know, there's enough out there for everybody. And if we were all so generous with our ideas and our time and what's been successful, if I can cut back some of your mistakes from my mistakes, why not? What Do I have. What am I having to lose? Nothing. [00:38:06] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, that's been the. For me, the. The secret to business is talking to other people that. That are. They might completely different issues or whatever, but you can learn so much and they might say, hey, I'm doing it this way, and go, okay, that. I like that. But maybe we'll do a little, you know, tweak on that. But it's just. That is the secret to me, the shortcut is surround yourself with other people, talk to them about what they're doing, mastermind groups, podcasts, whatever. Everyone's out there to share openly and. [00:38:35] Speaker A: Which wasn't that way not that many years ago. [00:38:38] Speaker B: Yeah, we have all this to our advantage at this point. [00:38:47] Speaker A: There's so much information out there that it can be a little overwhelming, and it can make you feel either like an imposter, the imposter syndrome, or insecure [00:38:59] Speaker B: or just not doing anything because you're kind of like analysis paralysis. [00:39:03] Speaker A: I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. And you know the best way to be procrastination? Just do something. [00:39:12] Speaker B: Do the hardest thing you have to do today first. [00:39:14] Speaker A: You could do it that way or just say, you know, I was listening to something by Ed Miletti had somebody on. And everybody's so focused on peak performance. Peak performance, peak performance. I'm focused on optimal performance. There's a big difference. Peak performance. Once you hit the peak and everything's perfect or you finally get to the peak. There's only one. One last place that's down. Optimal is based on situations. What's the optimal performance I can do based upon X situation. So, like. And how many X situations are you in? So many of them. So should you focus on peak performance or should you focus on optimal performance based on the situation and circumstances? [00:40:02] Speaker B: Yeah, and peak, you know, that burns people out, you know, always being at their best. [00:40:07] Speaker A: That's the Monday morning quarterback. You should have done this. But in that situation, what was the optimal decision? What was my mindset? What was my thinking? Could I have done better? Could I have optimized it better? And that's what you need to focus on. Not the peak, but the optimal. Yeah, what's that? [00:40:27] Speaker B: And plus, you know, it's just consistently getting into things. [00:40:30] Speaker A: You're going to be better and better. [00:40:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:32] Speaker A: Because you're not always in that same situation. Your clients come to you and they don't say. They don't say the same 10 things. It's not always the same thing. [00:40:40] Speaker B: So it's always different. [00:40:42] Speaker A: Sometimes it's about understanding what's the best worst. They're not in a good situation. Let's analyze our best worst situation. It's not the peak, but we're optimizing based on the situation, the time frame, the monetary, the level of injuries, your family situation. So. And I think it's the same way in business, you know. Yes. [00:41:06] Speaker B: Yeah. I have law firms coming to me, you know, law firms all over the country. Here's my situation. And then my budget is only this. Okay, well yeah, obviously if you had unlimited budget, we could talk about the things you could do. That's the situation we're in. What we do with what you're doing [00:41:22] Speaker A: is you're saying your budget is this. Your expectation is 15 new cases. The reality is based on your budget and your risk tolerance, all I can tell you is to optimize that you can only get six cases. I could comfortably say, yeah, exactly. So if you're thinking 15 and I'm telling you based on your budget and even optimizing that going to be four to six, then maybe I'm not the right. I'm not going to, I'm not going to promise you the world. And that's why just like lawyers and just like in the marketing for lawyers is 1.2 million of US lawyers. So you know, and does you might not be the marketer because you're not willing to promise X to get the client in. Because Kevin's focusing on long term and living up to what he's promising. [00:42:10] Speaker B: Yeah, 100%. [00:42:11] Speaker A: Basically your job is. And my job is to out, I guess give them more than that that we promised over deliver. [00:42:19] Speaker B: Always the goal, if it's possible, over deliver. [00:42:22] Speaker A: But be realistic in what you can accomplish because if that expectation is set from the start. [00:42:28] Speaker B: Yeah. You can't get back out of it. [00:42:30] Speaker A: Right. So and you know, and I think one thing I will say when dealing with marketers and people like Kevin is that you have to tell them as an attorney or stop asking them what can, what can you get me for this? Why don't you tell them what your expectations are? 10, 17. And this is why I need to have this quality. I need to have this many leads, but qualified leads and then say, well okay, I'm getting you the leads, but maybe it's intake thing but you have to be very specific as to your goals and expectations with your vendor. In this case, let's say Kevin. Because if you're leaving it up to Kevin, that's not fair either. I Think you should come in there telling the marketer or the vendor, I expect this many leads or this many cases, or how do you want to break it down to see if we've reached our goals? Is your, is your goals direct marketing? Is it branding? Is it awareness? You have to be prepared when they come see you to have a real discussion. [00:43:29] Speaker B: Yeah, 100%. I mean, our best, you know, just to go on that tangent, our best clients, they track, they know their goals, they know what's happening. The ones that are riding blind. A marketing company is not going to save the day. The firm needs to have a vested interest and understanding and then what's going on on their side. Leads come in, did it sign? What's the values? What's the quality? [00:43:49] Speaker A: Yeah, because so many people say, well, I got you the leads, but if you didn't track them like you said, well, this, this wasn't even a qualified lead that I'd even want. And, and I think if you don't know how to track that, that's when you speak to Kevin, say, Kevin, I'll be honest with you. I really. Part of the problem is I don't know what to expect because I don't know how to track. And then Kevin's going to tell you, okay, that's a fair question and I appreciate the honesty. But let me tell you how you should track what's worked for me working with all these law firms. And if you track this, let me show you what we can do. And let me show you, then I could see if it's a, if it's a marketing problem and your intake people problem, or there's so many different options, but it's not just we're not getting enough. That's just a very, that's a goal without, without the action. [00:44:36] Speaker B: Yeah, that won't end well. [00:44:38] Speaker A: That's like saying, I want to lose 30 pounds. How are you going to do it? Well, I don't know. I didn't think about that, you know, so I think, and that's why I think it's important to. When you speak with a person just like Kevin is, be honest with them. That's why he does what he does. You may, you may need to know a little bit more. I always learn from different marketers and different, different ideas and how to better track and what this will do. But you also have to be understand your own business because you may have markers for you that might not be applicable in other states that, let's say Kevin says, my friend in Georgia, well, for me they don't have no fault in Georgia. So my time on desk is going to be longer on a case. [00:45:21] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. [00:45:22] Speaker A: But. So it's an education for both of you to. Kevin needs to understand your business. You need to understand what Kevin's attack is and approach. [00:45:29] Speaker B: Well, just like you talking to an injury client. Right. If you didn't ask me any questions, you didn't get all the information, then, you know, how are you going to know how to handle the case? [00:45:38] Speaker A: Don't be surprised when they say, oh, you didn't ask me that. Oh, I didn't know that. [00:45:42] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. [00:45:44] Speaker A: It's your job. It's your job to know it. And that's the difference between being average and not caring and just getting the job done as opposed to really making the effort, trying to make a difference, I think. But most businesses are basically the same. The same. You know, all clients favorite. You know, you have to remember, you have to make it about your client. It's not about you as the owner. It's about your client. What do they say clients favorite radio station is? Wiifm. What's in it for me? [00:46:18] Speaker B: They're calling your firm because they're. They have a situation and they're thinking about themselves at that moment. [00:46:24] Speaker A: You know, it is about them, though. [00:46:25] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. It is about them. [00:46:27] Speaker A: You know, why am I telling them how great or how all this. If they ask you, what. How would you approach us? Have you had similar cases? Yes, but it's not about those cases because that's not your case. Maybe so. And just like people in different states, different counties, different issues for you, as. As. As a marketing person, as a marketing vendor is. Is. You know, you have to be aware of where you are, what part of the country, what county is it a city is. There's so many. So many factors. What are the competition? [00:46:58] Speaker B: Yeah, it's all very variable and situational, and you got to find out as much as information as you can and put the best plan forward that you can. It's, like optimal. [00:47:06] Speaker A: Like you said, it's optimal based on the situation. You know, peak might be. You want to peak if you're. If you're run. If you're Usain Bolt and you're running one race, you want to. You want to be at your peak, I guess. But otherwise, I think in business, it's about optimizing based on the situation. [00:47:26] Speaker B: Amen to that. Well, I love everything you had to share, Brett. We definitely have similar views and how we run our companies and our staff and care about what you know, our people and our clients. And it served us both well, it seems so. Hopefully everyone's learned a lot of good things there from Brett and how he does his things at his firm. I love what he's doing, I love what he shared and I hope it was helpful to you all. Brett, what's the best way for folks to be able to connect with you directly? Either it's on social or through your firm. [00:47:58] Speaker A: You can, they can email me at Brett B R E T T at H l g n y.com or can see us on number of YouTube and social media and all. All that fun stuff where we get to. We have some fun where we do things like five things you can say to a judge that you can't say to your wife. [00:48:19] Speaker B: That's awesome. [00:48:19] Speaker A: I love it. [00:48:20] Speaker B: I like firms having fun with stuff, you know, and, and not being so drab and, and boring. So I think that's really cool to see these days. Also, if you're listening. Yeah. Reach out to me. You can DM me or LinkedIn, wherever you're seeing this, send me an email and I'll make a direct connection with Brett and you. I think he's got some great business practices and I think anyone listen can learn and improve what they're doing. [00:48:41] Speaker A: I appreciate the time and any other attorney that wants for me to further expand on what's been good and bad for me hiring and been what's worked and hasn't, by all means, give me a call or email me. I'm always willing to help. [00:48:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I just think, you know, that's, that's so awesome to see in business today. A lot of openness. Everyone's willing to help and share, especially in this legal, you know, legal industry. I've, I've seen nothing but that. It's encouraging and excited to see 2026 has to bring. [00:49:14] Speaker A: Let's make 2026 great. [00:49:16] Speaker B: Awesome. Well, Brett, you stay on with me. Everyone else, thank you so much for tuning in. Hope you enjoy meeting Brett and listening to his story and sharing and we'll see you soon. In the next episode.